Coal mines around Wigan in the early 1900's

Can anyone tell me about the work conditions, in the Coal mines, in the late 1800's, early 1900's?
Were the miners able to stand up and mine the coal, or did they lay down to mine the coal? Was the coal transported out of the mines with train cars or was there another way to get the coal out? At what age was a person allowed to mine coal?
Any info is appreciated
Thank you,
Arlene

masses of information is available on the subject - just try a google search and make sure there's a lot of paper in your printer. Good luck

WLCT have an Online Photographic Archive which could be helpful, Agertsch.

Wigan & Leigh Archives Online, the new photographic & collections website - archives.wigan.gov.uk

Children in mines

Thanks so much...... very interesting. I now have an idea of what the conditions were like for my uncles and grandfather.

agertsch

"Were the miners able to stand up and mine the coal, or did they lay down to mine the coal?"

I suppose it depends how tall the miner was

In my lifetime coalseams varied in height.Once visited Hapton valley seam was 28inches high,remember to take spade onto coal face right way up hard to turn over on face.Worked at Golborne colliery most seams were between 4ft-6ftalso seams in lancashire were steep from 1in 4 to 1in1.9 at Agecroft.worked in all conditions flooded seam,cold, dusty or very hot and humid.This being modern working conditions

ppnw, The lowest face I worked on at Golborne was H 10.It was about one metre high. Had special short shovels made, it was imposible to use a full size one. This was in the 1980s, as you say, modern mining, what a laugh.

There are seams that were worked around Roby mill that were only 18 inches in height. These would have been worked in the mid 1800's. There are seams in Horwich which were mined at between 12 inches and 4 feet in height upto the 1960's

forgot about h10 easier to drag body along face than shuffle on elbows and knees

I worked with one fellow on H 10 who was about 6ft 2in tall, it was impossible for him to kneel up, so when nature called he had to sit up, point evrything down brow, and hope for the best.

JohnPit had a seam which was supposedly 2ft, but in actual fact, it was 1ft-11inches of coal with 5-to-6 inches of cannel on top. But with wooden bars 6 inches thick supporting the roof, it WAS difficult to turn a spade over & most coalers wore their batteries on their side, rather than on their back.
Other seams were more comfortable to work in, yard & 4ft thick.
The adjoining Standish Hall Drift mine, had seams of 7ft, down to 4 ft, also plenty water...a very wet pit. We wore wellies all day, & even those were innefective when a pump broke down, was swamped & had to dive for it..To haul it out.

In the 60s I worked in a privatly owned mine in Billinge and the coal seam was just 26in high. As stated above. if you took your spade on the face the wrong way up you had to crawl of again to turn it over. There was 9 of us working on the face with "bryeds" of 10 yards each. The coal was cut on the night shift,(sampson undercutter with 6ft jib)
and we would drill, fire, shift the coal and timber up.
Unless the was any problems outby it would take us about 6 hours. All for £18 a week! Later I worked at Pony Dick colliery in Highfield, another private colliery, but that was a differant type of mining called pillor and stall as against longwall mining. From there a joined a specialised tunnelling company and work at varoius coalmines throughout the northwest, staffordshire and yorkshire. Thatcher put an end to my mining career in 1984.

Was this 'spade' (shovel!) a left handed one?

You can take your "Pick"

aqui, the tunneling Co, wasn't run by a big Irish chap, name of Luke Tunney was it?

No, I worked for A T C Associated Tunnelling Company. Their head offices was at Lowton, there was a few Paddys worked with us though, all good workers. I also worked for Thysens for a while, they were a German tunnalling company who had various conracts in the N W coalfield,I remember driving a tunnel at Parsonage with them breaking into the Black and white seam. Crap job that but great money!

MY dad was down the mine according to him, aged 11. Conditions were very hard. We really do not know what work is, According to my dad. His Brother died a premature painful death from a Emphasimia ( problably spelt wrong).

My Grandad worked at Maypole colliery and as fortune would have it he was off sick with flu the day of the tragic explosion.Thans for the descriptions guys. My dad said sometimes there were water leaks running by you all day and getting you very wet. Down the mine before daylight and up again after nightfall,Not a very good life , but the comradery was so strong.

kameras, the conditions didn't change. In fact, they went worse with the advent of coal cutting machinery, as opposed to manual extraction (they created more dust). And that water you mention was still flowing in the 1980's!

Aqui, Luke Tunney made the national dailies when he connected a shallow drift mine (Standish Hall) to a deeper mine (Johnpit) via a 1 in 3 gradient, 515 yard tunnel, started at both ends to meet in the middle(without the modern dialling equipment), & at the finish, the centre line was 1¾ inches out of line.
I was there when the burn hole was fired through. Brilliant job in those days (1954)

@Tonker yes I can accept that the water was running. Must have been awful. My mate worked in Bickershaw colliery, he said that conditions were hard too, that was in the 80s too.

Talking about mines. We owned a house in Ormskirk Rd , we started getting subsidence.

We had some cracks in the walls too and the roof was not perfectly level We had issues with he surveyors and engineers until the maps revealed that underneath the area were 'Pirate Mines' unofficial unauthorised mines , snd they were the cause of what they say is 'Settlement' and it has affected many homes in the area.

kameras,can you confirm,for Tonker's benefit,whether or not Ormskirk Rd is in "Wigan".If it is then that subsidence wasn't caused by mining!

I'll confirm Ormskirk Road as being in Pemberton, not Wigan!

Tonker pal,your comeuppance is imminent!!

Bring it on!

The original name for Ormskirk Rd was "Robbing Lane" I believe.

art

Acording to a map I have got it was called 'Robin Lane'

Art's correct. It was Robbing Lane.

1849 map

Was'nt the area round Newtown once known as "Robin", hence Robin Park?

'Robbing Lane End'. Or Robbin' Lane End'. Or 'Robbin' for short! (hence Robin Park)

Is there any place that could tell me which mine my grandfather worked at in about 1895 until he left in about 1907?

Do you know where it was?

All I know is that he lived in Ince, somewhere on Warrington Road from his birth until he left for the USA.

When we were little, Newtown was always known as Robin.

That's because you were all daft. In fact, you still are!

WELL ARLENE, MY FATHER WENT DOWN THE MINE AT 13 YRS OF AGE HE OFTEN USED TO TELL ME ABOUT THE CONDITIONS, THEY WERE VILE AND NOT FIT FOR HUMAN BEINGS TO GO AND AF TO EARN A LIVIN.
HE STARTED AT BLUNDEL'S AT PEMBERTON,THEN LOTS OF OTHER MINES WHEN HE GOT OLDER, HIS JOB WAS A PONY LEADER WHEN THE MEN HAD FILLED THE TUBS HE WOULD THEN LEAD HIS PONY TO PIT HEAD TO BE HAULED UP.AS FOR HIEGHT'S IT DEPENDED ON THE SIZE OF THE SEAM,
SO FOR YOUR RECORDS HE WAS JUST 13 YRS HE WORKED MOST OF HIS LIFE DOWN THE (HELL HOLE )AS HE CALLED IT AT THE GRAND AGE OF 55YRS HE COULD NO LONGER WORK!IN FACT HE COULD NOT BREATH IN GOD'S FRESH AIR ANYMORE HE'D CONTRACTED THE INFAMOUS ( SILICOSIS) AT the END HE HAD 100/% COULD NOT RAISE FROM A CHAIR WITHOUT HARDSHIP, AND ANOTHER NAIL IN THE COFFIN LID WAS ,IN LATER YEARS WHEN MINERS WERE ENABLED TO GET SOME COMPENSATION HE OR WE DID NOT QUALIFY FOR ANY PAYMENTS BECAUSE ( THIS IS THE CHOKER) DURING THE QUALIFING YRS IT WAS STATED BY THIS ALAS I CANT SWEAR THIS BLOODY GOVERNMENT said HE HAD NOT WORKED FOR THE BLOODY N.C.B AT THE RIGHT TIMES,RESULT £000000000000 FOR 40 ODD YRS DOWN
THE MINES THANKS THOMAS FOR NOWT!!!
SO THER YOU ARE ARLENE I HOPE THIS HAS BEEN SOME HELP FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!IF U WANT FURTHER IM alanw47@sky.com

I went down pit at 15 and after coming out this is the way I feel about the mines Click here looking back it was the best thing that could have happened for me when they shut Park Colliery I got out for good

Lowest face I've been on was Brackley near Walkden,it was only about 30inch,there was also a Canal which went through the workings,and there was a shaft and a drift as well,hottest was Nook Arley,the pit with the wonkiest shaft was Sandhole in Walkden,it had wooden guide rails,and the wettest face by a long way, C1 at Parkside.

Hello agertsch,my father was born in 1898 and the 1911 census shows his occupation as a coal miner.

Iam surprised anybody went down a mine at all after reading these post...did somebody force them down.

This is a really interesting post. Thanks to everyone who wrote of their experiences.

Would someone be very kind and explain the following terms to me? I am writing about my Dad who was a collier in the 1920s and I would like my narrative to be accurate. Thank you.

“... coalers wore their batteries on their side” what kind of batteries would those be, for what use?

What is a “bryed?”

What is a sampson undercutter with a 6ft jib?

In “...drill, fire, shift the coal and timber up” what does “fire” mean? I assume “timber up” means placing pit props?

What is “pillar and stall” and what is “longwall mining.”

What is a “black and white seam?”

What is a “shallow drift mine?” I think I can guess what a burn hole is.

I read that some of the tunnels (roads?) were between 4 and 5 feet high and miners had to walk, often a mile or more, bent over. Is that true? My Dad was 6”1’ - it would have been hell for him.

I am also writing about the 1913 Pemberton New Venture Pit Accident. Can anyone point me to a good description of this mine?

Finally, my Dad was born in 1906 and went down the pits as soon as he was old enough. Does anybody know how old that would have been?

I so wish I had asked him about his life, but kids have little curiosity about these things. He died at 45 and I never got the opportunity in later life to talk to him.

I would appreciate your help.

Thanks

Whacker.

whacker Longwall mining, I think, was when they replaced the wooden pit props with metal machinery which moved along the coal face as made by Gullicks in Ince.

A flat lead / acid battery normally held on a belt, supplying power to a cap lamp.

Don't know what a bryed is (or was!)

A Samson Cutter.

To "Fire" - means to use explosives to loosen the coal.

A 'pillar' is a pillar of coal left in place to hold the roof up. A 'stall' is the chamber between the pillars where coal is removed from.

'Longwall' mining is where all the coal is taken from one long continuous face and roof supports are moved forward as the coal is taken in equal amounts along the length.


The 'Black and White' was a nickname for two close coal seams sometimes worked together as one.

A shallow drift mine is a tunnel driven into coal seams as they rise close to the surface.

The 'main' roadways were kept quite high, but the tunnels driven off these were lower. Some back-roads in modern coal mines were 4 to 5 feet high in places, and that was in the 70's and 80's.

I should imagine kids started work a coal mine at 14 in your dad's day.

A "bryed,"not sure how it's spelt,was the length of coal on the coalface a collier had to move in his shift,eg 6 yards,the face was split into upper and lower,this was the only way at my 1st pit Nook Pit.

Breyd, is local for Breadth. So a nine yard breadth in a yard high by four foot six deep, would be the coalers "Breyd" he had to load on the conveyor, & timber up behind him as he loaded it.

We used Anderson Boyes cutters, on longwall & shortwall (pillar & Stall)
the longwall had a 4ft 6in moveable jib
The shortwall had a 7ft fixed jib.
Just before Johnpit finished, they introduced a "Gloucester Getter" which had 2 vertical jibs & 2 horizontal jibs this fed directly onto the face conveyor.....When it wasn't broke down

Gloucester Getter:

A drift mine was a mine where you could walk down a sloping tunnel from the surface to the workings without the need for mine shafts with cages.Pillar &stall if you can imagine (like a chess board )birds eye view then the black squares are removed but the white squares are left intact to support the strata above.Samson cutter Again if you can imagine a giant chain saw then this is used to under cut the coal seam either with a rigid boom or a swinging boom from side to side to a depth of between 3-6ft for the full length of the coal face the m/c being dragged along the face by anchored ropes or chains.Once undercut the remaining seam is drilled to same depth has the undercut,explosives are used in the drill holes and electonicaly fired.The colliers then loaded the coal onto a conveyor using a spade,each collier was given a set length of the coal face to work and to set wooden roof supports behind his worked section.

Parkside was the most interesting pit,in the very early years electric was banned until the airways were finished,so everything was worked with compressed air,there were some old relics in those years,cutters,pumps,conveyers,haulage engines etc,even the lights at the pit bottom,then they got all the latest machinery that was available once electric was allowed.

Hi Aquertsch,growing up in Wigan in the 40's and fifties it seemed that most of the adult males in the neighborhood were pitmen or railway men.As I remember,watching the pitmen returning from work they all had black faces and a similar gait,sort of straight and proud.Their snap tin (lunch tin) was fastened to the back of their belt and being empty it bobbed up and down as they strode down the street.As I said my father was working in the pit aged 13 on the 1911 census.Sons followed fathers and the vast majority of my male ancestors back to the early 1800's were pitmen.I salute each and everyone of them with the greatest of respect.

Thank you.

I think all my questions save one were answered. Can anyone tell me where I can find a description of the Pemberton New Venture Pit? I am particularly interested in this mine.

Two new questions. Can anyone describe what a shot firer did? I read one account that said he would pour explosive powder (gunpowder?) into a pencil like tube of brown paper, insert it into a crevice in the wall, alert the miners who would take shelter (!) in hidey holes in the walls of the tunnels, and then ignite the end of the tube and duck away himself.

I am no physicist, but that doesn't sound right to me. Surely the blast would be directed outward, through the crevice entrance and the path of least resistance, and the energy of the explosion would be dissipated? Can someone set me straight?

Finally, I have the Wigan Examiner and the Founded on Coal accounts of the 1913 Pemberton New Venture Pit accident, but, and I find this odd, the Wigan Heritage Office tells me that there is no account of this historic event in the Collier Examiner. Does anyone know where I may find another account?

Really finally: my thanks to everyone who responded with all this useful and interesting information. It will add considerable verisimilitude to my narrative. (I know. I liked that word, too.)

I knew the mines were hard, but until I researched it, I had no idea how hard. My hat is off to all those brave and hardy souls who endured nightmarish conditions to feed and raise their families. Gentlemen, and Ladies, too, living and dead, we are indebted to you. You make us proud.

Whacker

A shotfirer (or a fireman) used explosives to blast coal or rock. Shot holes were drilled into the face, usually to a depth of 3 or 6 feet. these shot holes were then filled with explosives and a detonator. To prevent the shots from being blown back out of the hole they were packed with steming, this was a jelly like substance which sealed the shot hole. In modern times shotfirers were also mine officials,known as deputys. On mechanised faces shotfireing was still used at face ends and on the caunch.(pronounced kench) The shots were fired from a safe distance and senturies were posted to prevent other miners from entering the area.

my dad would not hear my words of workin in the pits.as it turned out he was right.

Nice one tonker, you'd better add an explanation for the non mining folk

Thanks, Tuddy. I appreciate the excellent description.

Whacker

Tonker does not seem forthcoming. Why don't you explain the Ajax joke to us all?

Whacker you are spot on with what a shotfirer did.He put different stengths of powder in the tubes then packed the remainder of the drill hole with packing (thick clay)and also different lengths of ignitable fuse.light the touch paper and hide so to speak.Modern shotfirers used the same principle but used electronic detonators inserted into the back end of the explosives,this is then inserted into the drill hole along with more explosives upto approx1kilo per hole this was then packed out with a special gel or clay or sand plugs.The wires from each detonators are joined in a loop and then to a twin core cable then a special battery(sometimes 100mts long cable)sentries posted gas tests before firing and after firing. Modern detonators also have time delays so you can use different ones for different types of firing ,wedge shape,fan shape , square etc

Thanks you, ppnw38817

A terrific description, thank you.

Whacker.

Whacker, I would think you've seem these photos but just in case you've not Click here theirs some good photos from down the last coal mine to close in this area

My Dad will be 85 this year. He worked down the pit all his life. Not long ago he told me that he had hated every moment of it. It was pretty good money, but that was the only good thing about it.

THIS IS FOR( NODDY2 )IN MY FATHER'S TIME YOU WERE NOT FORCED TO GO DOWN THE PIT ITS ALL THERE WAS NODDY WE ARE TALKING 1915-20 MY GRANDAD WAS A MINER,AS WAS ALL HIS BROTHER'S I DONT THINK YOU ARE ABLE TO GRASP WHAT IT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE BACK THEN HOW OLD ARE YOU?MY MOTHER USED TO TELL ME WHEN IT WAS TIME FOR YOUR SCHOOLIN TO END USUALLY AGE 14 THEN UNLESS YOU WERE VERY CLEVER THAT WAS IT MATE THE PIT WAS CALLING ,I AM TRYING TO SEARCH TO FIND WHAT OTHER JOBS IF ANY WERE AVAILABLE THEN I DONT THINK CHOICE CAME INTO IT! HOPE THIS ANSWERS YOU Q. CHEERS WINK.

HI THERE DOUGIE I FOLLOWED YOUR INVITE TO THAT POSTING AND THANK YOU FOR IT . AS I WATCHED AND LISTENED TO DAVID ALEXANDER I TRULY FELT A TEAR OR TWO FLOW FROM ME RECALLING MY OWN DEAR DAD,IN MY PREVIOUS POSTING, IF I CAME ACROSS BLUNT I CANNOT HELP IT. TO THINK THAT THOSE CHEATING PRIVATE OWNERS TREATING MEN AND BOYS LIKE THAT GETS MY BLOOD BOILING TO THINK ABOUT IT IT'S JUST GETTING THE SAME NOW WITH THIS BLOODY SHOWER IN AGAIN.THEY WOULD DEARLY LOVE THOSE DAYS WERE
BACK WHEN YOU TIPED YOUR FORELOCK TO THEM .JUST ONE MORE Q DOUGIE DO YOU KNOW OF A WILF WINSATNLEY?

Thanks, Dougie, those are great photos.

Jacks, thanks for the comment, and tell your Dad Happy Birthday from Whacker in the USA.

Awinstanley1 - I know how you feel.

Tonker, explain the Ajax joke, I could do with some hilarity.

Agertsch - sorry, I did not intend to hijack your post.

To everyone, thank you for the riveting information.

Whacker

Whacker,The ajax isn't a joke,it was the name of the most powerful of the permitted explosives to be allowed in coal mines,for rock blasting only,nowhere near coal.It was called Polar Ajax because it contained antifreeze.

There must have been lots of Ajax used when Wimpys were driving the tunnels at Parkside,I believe there were about 13 miles of main tunnels driven before the first face B1 opened.

Thanks, Phred, for clearing that up.

I cannot imagine being a mile down, maybe a couple of miles from the hoppett, very dark, just the sound of the trickle of water and men breathing, and watching a guy tap down explosive into a paper cylinder, inserting it into a crack in the wall, and igniting it. He shouts a warning and everybody backs into a hidey hole, keenly aware that a miscalculation could bring the whole damn thing down on their heads.

AS I think Dave Marsh remarked about miners; true grit.

Whacker

Whacker, you're very theatrical, aren't you?

A Winstanley 1, do I know your Wilf yes and David ask them do they know a Dougie from Reeds if you look at this video you will see him doing the only work he ever did at Reeds walking about with a cup of tea in his hand (Tell him Dougie said that) this is the link off WW that I upload look for someone with a cup of tea thats your Wilf,hope he is OK tell him I've been asking about him Here

Hello pppn38817

Could I bug you one last (I think) time?

Do you know what explosive a shot firer would use in 1900?

Thanks

Whacker

Ammonium Nitrate Dynamite!

Black powder Whacker.

Whacker you may like to look at This it's just up the road from me in Ashton-in-Makerfield

There is a excellent book called the history of Lancashire and Cheshire Miners

whacker if you google ICI NOBEL explosives this will give you listings of explosives since the mid 1800,hope this helps

Thank you everybody for the great information and suggestions for look-ups. You all were most helpful.

The response was dynamite, one good report after another, and everyone did a bang-up job.

Thank you.

Whacker

Cawnt believe tonker didn't know what a Breyd wer
Ey up spell checkers not wurkin

Whacker try the Museum of Wigan Life for information about the New Venture Pit Accident.E-mail address is heritage@wict.org may be they can help you good luck

Thank you ppnw38817. I appreciate all your kind assistance.

rio caroni: Just between us, no-one else is to read this, especially Tonker.

I can't believe Tonker did not know that, either. I am not sure about Tonker. He has been very helpful with information. But he has also insulted my adopted country once, and me personally twice. All things considered, I am inclined to cut him some slack, as I see the poor man has a photograph of only one welly in his posts. So I think we should all be tolerant.

Best

Whacker.

http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk/white_papers/11.pdf
has information on eplosives used.

Thank you, myGriffiths

I shall check it out, and it is nice of you to help out once more.

Whacker.

They were grim my friend !

Hello Agertsch.

Not sure if you got a reply to your question about colliery workings along Warrington Road at the turn of the last century, but my Great Grandfather worked for Crow Orchard Colliery at that time. He lived on Warrington, just across from Deakin Street. It was just a short walk up Deakin to Banner Street where the colliery was located, I do not know when or how Crow Orchard was started, but I think by the early 1900's it was owned by Pearson & Knowles Coal and Iron Company.

Somewhere a bit East of Crow Orchard, there was a Church Iron Works backing onto the L.M.S.R. Springs Branch Line and in the 1920's there were abandoned old shafts next door to the iron works. I have no idea what they were or when they were last worked.