Brynne Hall Landgate Bryn

Hi
I live on the landgate estate and i have been researching brynne hall and have found out that there is still some of the wall left, but i dont know where,does anyone have any idea where abouts it is, also how big was the battlefield, did it actually take place on landgate and the surrounding areas, any help would be welcome. Thanks

Hi nicky689 have you googled it there's information on there

Hi Frank, yes i have googled it, i have found a lot about it, but cannot find where it was located

Nicky, go on 'google maps' and find 'Landgate Lane'. Click on 'satellite', then follow Landgate Lane past the school and Baldwins farm, then you'll see the waters on each side of the lane. About 50 metres past the waters, there's a field on the right of the lane in between the lane and the 3 sisters racetrack.
Bryn Hall was sited in the middle of that field.
The reason I told you to click on 'satellite' is because you can still see the outline in the ground of where it stood and the drive leading to it from Landgate Lane.

Richard Baldwin cleared the remains of the hall years ago, to use the field for crops.

Thanks Tonker, ill take a look now

You can see it's site marked on the 1849 map of the area on Old Maps. It's in the position I just explained, a square in that field, and marked 'Old Brynn'.

I think wigan archaeological society were once asking to do a dig around there, but Richard explained that all remains had been shifted.

Have a look on HERE

I always believed that the Hall was in the area of what is now Baldwins Farm. Or behind the farm

Just like to welcome you both back

Here's the map showing the hall, where I said it was.

I spotted it on google maps like u said tonker and it is visible and im going to go and take a look, thanks for all ur help

I can't distinguish exactly what the arrow is pointing at or read any written markings.
I await further information from our experts on WW.

Norman, you 'can't distinguish exactly what the arrow is pointing at' because there is no arrow!

Whilst you can't 'read any written markings', I've put a zoomed-in copy of the map.

You'll see the site of the old hall shown as a 'SQUARE' with 'OLD BRYNN' underneath it and the word 'MOAT' at the side of it, in old English.

By the way, I was shown the site of the old Bryn Hall years ago, by a descendant of the family that lived in it and who, indeed, owned it. So, which 'experts' on here do you expect to get better information from?

Thanks Tonker, it is much clearer in every way.
It is a very interesting subject which we probably should have learned something about in earlier years.
We are never too old to learn.

Tonker, the spelling of Brynne seems to be of Welsh origin,do you know of any connection?
I do know that Croft Cottages where I lived was also called Welsh Houses by some older people and the mine 100 yards further up the lane and near the main LMS railway line was called Welsh Pit. This consisted of two shafts with the winding house beteen the two.The shafts were smaller in diameter than later ones and before my time the usual brick wall had been built around each of them.As younster we used to throw stones over the wall and tisten for them dropping in the water below,counting the seconds it took to reach the bottom.

Hi Norman, my Mum lived in the Croft Cottages (Thelma Ward) and she told me they were also called the Welsh Houses but I don't think she knows why.

Isn`t there a Bryn Hall now where Trevor Standish lives and where St Edward Arrowsmith is buried?

Hello Suesa,nice to hear of someone from the past again.Those were the days but I wouldn't like to live down there now.
No Gas,no electric,paraffin lamps and coal fires and a long walk to Bryn Gates.not good in bad weather.
Electric lights were put in during the war years but I was away in the Army then
Give your Mum my good wishes and tell her I am 90 and my wife 91 tomorrow.so the years roll by.
Good wishes

Birthday Wishes to you and your wife Norman.
Mum always says that the days up Crippens were the very best.
We have both been to the Heritage Day at Park Lane Chapel & School today and were lucky enough to find the school registration of my Nanny (Clara) from when she was a little girl at the school. We were thrilled to find this record.
I will pass on your good wishes. Enjoy your day tomorrow.

Some very interesting facts have been posted on this piece of local hist5ory.
I think this site would be well served by more of this kind of posting.

I fully agree with you there, its a pity other people didnt have the same view.

just a little bit of probabley usless info but Bryn IS Welsh for top of the hill may be that is why they calling the houses the welsh houses

Brynn Hall was originally the manor of Sir Peter de Brynn whose daughter married Lord Gerrard and it then begame his manor .he then built the present Bryn Hall before aquiring New Hall from the Launder family and it was re-named Garswood Hall. Incidentally in the 40s,to the 60s it was occupied by millionaire Sydney Littler who I befriended when he asked me to repair the large metal gates at the entrance and are still standing today...So I went into the Hall several times but I found it rather sparce..But Syd was a really nice man and he helped me quite a lot in my business growth. And the name is Welsh for a hill or mountain ...

The story of Welsh houses in my day was that The pit was staffed by many Welsh people who lived in Croft Cottages, hence they were called Welsh houses ?

description of hall

I dont know if anyone has noticed, but theres a road missing on that map. Does it not exist any more? I'm thinking of Mesnes Lane...

Actually the local link with the Gerard family is still not lost because he still owns a lot of land in Ashton under a 999 year lease Including my house.....When the present Lord Gerard dies(and he is in his 60s. ) his estate will be sold by his trustees who are based in London and there will be no more Lord Gerards ever...God help us if Wigan Metro is the buyer..........Its compulsory purchase and demolition all over again!!!!

This site has been the most interesting and enlightening of late and well worth following.
I have enjoyed all the various stories and history.
Keep up the good work

My great grandfather was the head gamekeeper at bryn hall his surname was TOPPING my mum lived at 538 bolton road bamfurlong her surname name then was JAMES gladys enid and my grandparents names were joe and gladys JAMES my mum has 2 brothers & 1 sister arther,albert & sylvia my 2 uncles worked in coop (village stores) fruit &veg. i will contact my mum who is now 83 & find out more about my great grandad. i would like to thank all of you for the information you have given.my name is Brian James Green some people know me as Brian James.

More information,my great grandad TOPPING first name was WILLIAM (bill)and lived in wood cottage with my great grandma,not sure of her first name yet.they had 2 daughters gladys (my grandma)and mildred

I was born in Bryn Road, the buildings on the right hand side of the road coming from Potters farm down Bryn Road,on the right hand side there is sign on the houses Says Brynn Road, the N's are reversed which was apparently the Welsh way.
don't know if this is true.

Back to front N’s are Cyrillic, I’ve never seen any in Wales.
I read in a local history book many years ago (I can’t remember the reference), many Welsh slate miners were recruited to work in the collieries, particularly around Wigan - Ashton, in the mid 19th century, the coal industries boom period.

There was a Welsh community on Bolton Road, bordering Town Green and Stubshie, another was at Bryn. Each community had its own Methodist chapel, built for (and mainly by) the Welsh settlers. The gist being, where you find a Methodist chapel in this area, there was very likely a Welsh community.
My grandmother, Miriam Pearce, was half Welsh and came from Stubshie, I didn’t get the chance to ask her about her family history but I am now looking into it.

Is this the building mystique its off WW

My Dads Grandparents on his birth mothers side ( she died when he was only 4)came from Wales to Ashton, I was told they lived in on of the houses next door to the Welsh Chapel on the left hand side as you go up Bolton Rd... I never knew any of them as all the family apart from my Dads mother and a brother, all left to come to the States in the 1920s..

Mystique i've got a full list of all the houses in Bryn road in 1926,who owned them and thier occupations.Next door to St.Peters church is listed as Park lane village club.Has anyone heard of this next to the church.I'll drop you a copy off in your shop.

spectre :

Could it be the Masonic Hall ?

Could be the Masonic Hall,nobody in the bowling club had heard it called that.

Isn't there a Park lane Club on Downall Green Rd between Soughers Lane and Bryn Cross..

We should have copped the two lists for uploading on here Spectre, as people would have had relations that lived in Long lane before it was changed to Bryn Road going back before 1926

The Masonic Hall was once the Park Lane Club,My dad told me that years ago.

Tumtingle tha up late good neet

Park lane club is in Downall Green Road.Bryn Road used to be called Long Lane,Downall Green Road was Moor Lane and Park Lane was Wigan Road going towards Wigan.

That part of Downall Green Road was Eddleston Line the farm across the road was Eddleston farm,the other farm higher up the road was Moor Lane farm so the area was known as Moor Lane before it was changed

Been thinking about this and looking at the buildings and grounds I would say it was a smaller version of Garswood Hall Miners Institute that was on Wigan Road, and the one at Bryn was for the Park Lane pit miners so it could have been called Park Lane Miners Club at one time, bet Gaffer comes up with a map showing the club before it was called the Masonic Hall

The word Bryn as in Bryn hallwas originally derived from the word Brindle as in the village near Blackburn of that name...

Ray

The Brindle estate owned by the Gerards at one time also featured a Sir Peter de Bryn of Brynhill. Would this not have influenced the naming of the place we know as Bryn.

Hisorical note.
The next monarch was Edward I and the estate then passed with Joan, daughter and heiress of Sir Peter de Bryn of Brynhill, to William Gerard Esq. The Gerard family owned large estates other than Brindle. In 1513 Sir Thomas Gerard was said to lead Brindle tenants and archers at the Battle of Flodden where the English defeated the invading Scots at Flodden Field in Northumberland. In 1547 the Cavendish family entered the picture through marriage. However, it appears that William Cavendish (1505-1557) may have seized the estate.

That`s more or less correct gaffer, And also that picture of the cottages up Bryn Lane is the lane that started as Bryn Road South(as we now know it) and crossed long lane at the Red Gate (Formerly Redgate Lane and now known as Lockett Rd.)The first hall was built by Sir Peter of Brindle. Brindle being derived from the meaning a welsh hill.Which leads us back to the welsh connection.....av getun yedache ney so am goint bed....

wellcomw to wigan world mystque..how are you how is the rekki going?

Spectre. I also hail from Bryn road and would love to see the list from 1926. Any chance u could upload it on here?

Hi nutty tart i'll give it to Dougie on sunday,it'll be on hers next week.I'm new to computing and dont know how to do it.

Some nonsense history on here. Peter de Brynne... common welsh name.

Ray makes it up as he goes along. Ancient Kingdom of Stubshaw Cross, indeed!

hi spectre my wife would like to see the list as her fathers family lived on bryn rd .

As far as i have read the name Brindle has been associated with Bryn for quite a few years, Brindles had the Farm just off drummers lane & the name comes up in the Chapple on Landgate,

Hi bert what number.Dougie said he'll put it on next week,if I have a spare one i'll drop it off at your house.

Well just look at who has materialized out of his self-imposed tomb of silence....Dear Ned.....But has he changed ? No still the same old way of criticising everything I suggest without ever coming up with any of his own efforts......Well ,David,and Tonker, Just type the one word....Brindle..into Google and let that wise old owl of a search engine tell you how it was in those olden days..And then come back and apologise to me...But that`s asking too much isn`t it ?

What an interesting site. Especially the posts from gaffer and tonker. How do you get those maps on here. I have just traced my family tree and I love history.

hi spectre number 29.i was talking to john in the club last night and he asked had you posted a copy .

Hi Bert have a look in your mail box,no answer when I knocked.

thanks spectre the wifes family are on .

As usual Ray you take criticism personally. Brynne may suggest a welsh connection, but unlike others I do not use suggestion or supposition as historical fact.

"Before the Conquest ASHTON was no doubt one of the fifteen berewicks or dependent manors of the royal manor of Newton. (fn. 7) Later it was a member of the fee of Makerfield, which had Newton for its head. (fn. 8) At the survey of 1212 it was found to be held by Thomas de Burnhull or Brindle, being three plough-lands of the three and a half held by him in thegnage for 35s., and providing a judge and a half at the court of Newton. (fn. 9) Two plough-lands he had in his own hands, embracing, it would appear, Ashton proper, or Brynn, north of the Millingford Brook; the third plough-land, probably Garswood, was held of him by Henry de Ashton, 'of ancient feoffment,' (fn. 10) and under this Henry appears to have been held by Henry son of Roger, 'of ancient marriage.' Henry de Ashton had also granted 20 acres to the Hospitallers"

From British History online.

As usual I have no problems with sharing any sources of information about our local history unlike some that want to meet you in Stubshaw Cross Heritage Garden and explain how covert and devious the residents group is.

The above excerpt is particularly interesting to me as it mentions the Hospitalliers. Knights of the Poor come to mind , anyone know any more on this?

heres a link to the British History online site that I mentioned. It even mentions Rays mate John Launder.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41396&strquery=john%20launder#n3

As usual I will share any information.

Dear Ned... I first read the excerpt you quote over two years ago so its nice to know your catching up to me,..However its not relevant to the gist of this thread which is centred only on Bryn Hall.
I am not aware of anyone wanting to meet me in the Heritage garden just to call the residents group covert and devious so its nice to know there are others who share my opinion!!
In my book covert means not telling anyone what you are doing..and devious means doing things wrong but pretending its been done right like that tatty cross and that dodgy entrance which is downright dangerous? Do you agree?

Two years ago? you mean you only new to this?

Methinks you not been doing any research for very long. It shows.

And yes you are bitter about the garden because you didnt get your own way and you are like a spoilt child about it, the trustees of the land have the final say about what goes on in that garden, NOT the secretary ok? wonder who they are?

Dear Ned. Thanks so much for your valued information... Could you please tell me the address of these trustees so that I can ask their permission to have some memorial plaques placed in the garden for all thos Stubshie lads who didn`t come home from the wars?
I`m so glad I don`t have to ask the resident`s group for their permission because as you recall you have already refused it.....It gives me new hope!!!!

I've been asked to upload this on here by Spectre of all the houses in Bryn Road and Bryn Road South in 1926,

Dougie
Thanks for uploading those addresses of Bryn Rd.
My mums birth place is on there and so are a number of her aunts and uncles.
First class that Dougie
Thanks
Mark

Thank you Spectre and Dougie

nutty tart hope you found what you were looking for.

My uncle & his family lived in the 25 row untill they were knocked down, Do you remember Vera, Margaret &Geof Hilton Karen,They were my cousins,

Know Geof and knew Margret not seen much of Geof since the club started opening latter, he had a bad time about two years age but seems Ok now

I did thanks Spectre.
Bentlegs, course i remember the Hiltons. I remember lots of those names...great stuff.

Ray said "I`m so glad I don`t have to ask the resident`s group for their permission because as you recall you have already refused it"

Can you give me details of this request for permission and I will look into it for you.

dear ned.....Have you had a memory lapse? After all you were there at that meeting in November 2009 when I proposed that we should honour the memory of all the other Stubshie lads who died as well as William Keneally by putting more plaques up? Don`t you remember that not one of you seconded my proposal and your own father stated that the one plaque was enough because after all Billy was a V.C.holder?
Don`t look into it for me cos its NOT for me its for them.....And I won`t hold my breathe while your looking!!!

And just as a little reminder of exactly what you rejected this is a picture of the Victory Medal presented to the family of Private John Henry Lysons by KIng George V in 1918.
John Henry lived at 106 North St. and he went missing in action in 1917 and his body was never found..
loaned to me by his neice.

Hold your breath because I will look into it.

Thank you very much for this thread and all the people who have added to it.
It is very good to see
My Dad who was a miner his roots have been traced back to Wales