coal mining under Wigan.

I'm sorry to be bringing up an old topic again,but due to discussions with Tonker on another messageboard,I've felt it necessary to post on this one a few facts and figures accompanied by maps and sections mainly for Tonker's benefit but I've no doubt that a few people who took part in previous threads on the subject will be interested.
Now then Tonker,as I said previously on the other board,I have plans of the coal workings in all seams over much of the South Lancs area,from the higher seams such as the Bulldog,Worsley 4ft,Riding etc down to the Mountain Mines.
I have photocopied a small section of the Yard Mine workings in the vicinity of Wigan town center.It is in two pieces so that it is large enough to read easily.I have chosen the Yard for no particular reason other than that it is one of the most extensively mined in the Wigan area and surrounding districts.
On the plan you can see that I have superimposed the street layout of Wigan,the two railway stations and the main railway lines,the Leeds and Liverpool canal and the boundary of the former Wigan Borough.
I have also shown the main geological faults with their direction and size of 'throw' or vertical displacement at their position in the Yard seam.
As you can see,in the central area between the Giants Hall and St. Catherines faults, the seam has been extensively mined by the Rylands,Mesnes and Alliance collieries at a depth of 500 to 600 feet under most of the actual town center.
On the East side,between St. Catherines and The Great Haigh faults,Alexandra and Rosebridge collieries have virtually eliminated the seam under Scholes, Whelley and Higher Ince at about 1500 feet deep.
On the West side,Douglas Bank colliery has extracted a large stretch of the seam beneath the area of the present Robin Park area.The reason for the blank area towards the Giants Hall fault is because of numerous large and small'splinter' faults off the main one smashing the area up and rendering it not worth mining.Similarly on the NW side of Rylands colliery.
I could have done this exercise for the Arley,Smith,Bone,Cannel,King or Ravine seams and all would show a similar pattern.
I have also included a photocopy of the Geological Map over roughly tha same area,highlighted the main faults and the many shafts.As you can see I have drawn a 'Line of Section' across the map. I have drawn these up myself and as with the plan of the workings they are in two halves for clarity.
To enable me to draw it to a suitable size it is not to a scale but I have put some depths on it as a rough guide.
What it does show though is that,contrary to what you have stated in previous threads,the seams beneath the center of Wigan actually lie at a much higher level than on either side due to being between the Giants Hall and St Catherines faults, which throw the seams down on either side. This, Tonker,if you remember from your geology lessons is called a horst.
However, that didn't stop the seams in the deeper areas being heavily exploited as you can see from the plans of the workings.
As regards figures for the tonnages of coal extracted, you would have to consult the colliery companies records for that. All I have is evidence in the plans etc.
Hope this helps you Tonker.

You'll have to do better than that. Think productive 'WIGAN' collieries, not Haigh, Pemberton, Ince or Standish. We all know there was much coal mining in those places.

What are you on about Tonker? Explain yourself.

Chris, Tonker does't like to be proved wrong,he would argue black was white,

chris according to tonker haigh pem etc are not wigan ,he will argue till the cows come home ,dont ask

Nice work Chris, glad to see you've not lost any of your old skills. While we're on this subject, do you know if the Dairy pit was a drift mine? And also, was the Bridge pit the Dairy pits upcast?

Tonker is a classic case of the old saying;"A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing".Before I opened this thread I looked back at some of his previous rantings on the subject and had a laugh at some of the half baked theories he was coming out with and his statements that he had studied mining and geology at college or somewhere.I reckon he must have wagged a lot of the classes or only took on board the bits that fitted his narrow outlook.
Howdo Steve. Dairy pit and Bridge pit were both very old shafts which the NCB re-opened in the fifties I think it was,to work an area of Plodder seam under Haigh and Aspull. Dairy pit was still open and 4 large pumps were installed to drain a massive area of water in old workings to the north down to a level below the level of the King and Plodder.It was the coal winding and downcast shaft.Bridge pit had been filled in but it was excavated and relined,but not before a partial collapse which almost let the canal in.
Neither pit or workings from them were in Wigan!

When Dairy pit closed the men were transferred to Parkside,it was the first pit of a few which closed,the Dairy pit men opened B1 the very first face at Parkside.
PS. Parkside is'nt in Wigan

Tonker Douglas Bank was a productive colliery with shafts in Wigan therefore a Wigan Colliery. Regardless of take area it was a wigan colliery. You also have to look at collieries in context of the era they were in. Peter Platts mines in the centre of Wigan would have been productive in their day but in modern terms wouldn't be that productive. Likewise many of the 1900's pits wouldn't be productive in modern terms. Considering the earliets wigan mines were 16th century and it continues through to the 1920's or 30's there must have been some productive collieries in there somewhere

Nice maps Chris. Nice to have a proper Expert talking about what they actually know!

Yes. Chris has done a good job, proving that there wasn't, ever, very much productive coal mining taking place under 'Wigan'*!


* note: 'Wigan'. Not Ince, Haigh, Pemberton, Standish etc..

Were the 3 pits adjacent to Central Park, near enough to Wigan Gav?

Tonker you've not answered the question in relation to relative technologies available at the time of mining. Also given Wigan was a relatively populated area mining would be more limited than sinking a pit in Norley or on the edge of Standish, Haigh or Ince. If pits weren't commercially viable why were so many sunk and mined out. Mesnes colliery had at least 4 shafts if not more surely for a company to shell out so much in sinking shafts the rewards must have been there to justufy the expense. I seem to remember previous discussions where Tonker denied there being any coal whatsoever under Wigan but this viewpoint seems to have changed somewhat.

" not answered the question in relation to relative technologies available at the time"

A - Well, indeed I have. In fact, that was one of my first reasons given to there never being any serious coal mining under Wigan.

"Wigan was a relatively populated area"

A - Was it? And, if it was, would anyone care about mining under the houses?

".. why were so many sunk and mined out"

A - Probably they were mined out quickly, due to no coal being found?

"Mesnes colliery had at least 4 shafts if not more surely for a company to shell out so much in sinking shafts the rewards must have been there to justify the expense."

A - When these 'shafts' were sunk, how did the sinkers know if they would find coal or not? Faults, and the strata layout was 'discovered' by exploration. They didn't 'find' coal with a 'coal divining stick' pulled off a tree in Haigh plantations!


So, can any evidence be produced that shows the coal reserves (not a couple of outcrops or cannel) being worked 'under Wigan'?

*Remember:- Wigan doesn't mean Haigh, Ince, Pemberton etc.*

Tonker, have you looked at the maps properly?
Seeing that you think Douglas Bank and Rylands Collieries are in Norley Hall and Standish,fair enough.But what about Mesnes and Alliance colieries? These two between them mined the Yard seam under most of Wigan town center at about 5-600 ft depth.That's not scratching away at the outcrop but quite a large scale operation for the time.Also,as I've said previously and indicated on the map and sections,all the other seams available were mined extensively beneath the town center. I have the plans to prove it.Mesnes colliery shafts were roughly where Wigan Cricket Club is now and Alliance shafts were filled and grouted in when they built River Way near it's junction with Crompton St.
If two 600 ft deep mineshafts about 250 yds away from Wigan Parish church isn't central enough to Wigan for you,I'll see if there's any evidence for any shafts sunk in Market Place in front of The Moon under water!

Pits obviously would be successful as to actually fund shaft sinking would involve having to win coal. Even investors from earlier periods would have had a need to recoup funds so wouldn't provide for a lost cause. As i have previously mentioned for coal mining to exist in Wigan till at least the late 1920's there must have been financial success. 200+ years of coal mining and none of it a success seems doubtful. Coal prospectors will of had good knowledge of coal given that a number of the pits sunk were worked in a time of a rapidly expanding business. The orrell coalfield was worked out in less than 150years and is well documented as such. Less information exists about Wigan but it lasted as long if not longer. Incidently the closet pit to market place i know of are the shaft near the children's library or the shafts at chapel colliery in the grounds of Wigan parish church.

Detritus,the geological map I put a copy of on this post was the 1930 edition.There will be updated versions which will show more of the many shafts about the town center which have been uncovered since then as redevelopment takes place. All these were very shallow pits down to the 3 seams which outcrop across the center of Wigan, Wigan 6ft,Wigan 4ft and Wigan 5ft. The well documented ones being Platts pits in Library St on the old baths site,the workings from which were entered and surveyed in the 60's by NCB surveyors,prior to being filled with concrete.In my present employment as a site engineer in the construction industry,I worked on the redevelopment which produced the Life Centre between Library St and Millgate.Three previously unknown shafts were found during foundations construction.These and workings from them were pumped full of concrete grout before construction started.When Smiths bookshop in Mesnes St was being built they came across an old shaft there down to these seams. Every time they dug a hole at Central Park to build a new stand they came across old workings in the Wigan 4ft.All these were very old workings mined when the town center was very small.The Alliance,Mesnes and Rylance workings were much deeper and dated in the late 19th century.

Chris Just ignore him. He is green with envy because they have no Roman Ruins in St Helens.

I know about the shallow and deep workings. Alot of the info out on the internet is originally stuff I put together to battle with Tonker when he was insistant there was no coal whatsoever in Wigan as in the town centre.

My arguement with the early workings were that they were ecomnomical and productive at the time hence taking it all into context of when the pits were mined and sunk as to the amount of coal that came out but am in no doubt they were profitable whilst in action.

The likes of Mesnes, Swinley, Alliance and Gidlow were all major concerns exploiting deeper seams which you have highlighted. This goes back to my point that to sink a shaft of 600ft or more then you've got to be pretty sure you will make money from it or you will go bust. As Swinley and Gidlow were owned by Rylands & Sons Limited who were amongst the most sucessful business men of their day there is little doubt the pits would have been a success.

It is a shame there is no easy free access to output statistics as I would quite happilly read through and publish them.

If you ever want to discuss mining related info about wigan I have more in my head than I can type. I think my version of Geological Survey is around 1930's also.

chris you have done some good research good on you

To set things straight, I never said there was "no coal whatsoever in Wigan as in the town centre".

Mesnes, Swinley, Alliance, if they were economical and productive, could have taken coal from under Pemberton and Haigh (Gidlow was in Standish). None of them lasted long.

To be honest, I've never seen much TRUE 'mining related info' about Wigan. Let's face it, the coal 'exported' from Wigan to Liverpool, via the L&L canal, came 'into' Wigan from Winstanley and Pemberton. Even the coal used in Westwood power station came from outside Wigan.

In previous Wigan World and other places you have said there was no coal under Wigan but that seems to have been forgotten by your good self.

How long did they last? The pits will have been economical at the time they were mined. If you were to sink a pit today you wouldn't choose Wigan Township to do it. At the time they were an economical and viable option.

Its all about taking the mines that existed in terms of the time they were sunk and the availability of tools/machinary. If you were to work longwall faces using a coal cutter you will get a lot more done that a 100 men using a hand pick doing pillar and stall.

C'mon Tonker,yer waffling now! Give it up and admit defeat.

To set things straight, I never said there was "no coal whatsoever in Wigan as in the town centre".

Have you not? Read the following then.




: tonker (15366)

Art, as I've told you before, there is NO coal 'seams', or 'mines' as you like to call them, under Wigan. Any mining on the two faults would work away from Wigan, not towards.

Replied: 2nd Jul 2009 at 11:01
Last edited by tonker: 2nd Jul 2009 at 11:06:16

graneyjoseph,thanks. The stuff I posted on here I got together a while ago when I first saw the waffle which Tonker was spouting on previous threads.I just never got round to posting it then.It annoys me when people with a limited knowledge of subjects get on pontificating.I still have a sneaking suspicion though that Tonker is just a wind-up merchant!

I think deluded more is the issue. I keep meaning to do a bit more research but finding time is the difficult thing

W.W. is more entertaining with people like Tonker on the site

Coal mines around wigan

thanks delboy thats at least 13 in area of town centre,now unless they sink a shft then tunnel about a mile before taking any coal looks like tonkers wrong again

Aye detritus,that's partly my problem,time.Also being in the right frame of mind and fighting tiredness after a long day's work at my age.I used to enjoy visiting winder's website,pity it closed.Some pretty good stuff on that,and not just mining either.

Your spot on Chris Winders web site was excellent as to where his DVDs, i really enjoyed them, there was also the excellent "Wigan History web site too.

winder's dvds are excellent.Anyone with an interest in Wigan's mining history would enjoy them. Pity there aren't more.

Hello flaggy, good to see you back on again

Thanks winder, all the best. Still want to check out some sites before too long.