Stubshaw Cross Heritage Garden

The garden is more than half finished now so shall I criticise it at this stage or wait till its finished.?...either way I don`t think anyone would listen to me but given that I was the one who put the project on the table in the first place I do feel a sense of responsibility towards it... what do you think?

Bfore wanting any plaudits go and lay a brick or two or do some gardening, I passed that way the other week it might look ok when finished, look better than the old toilets that used to be there.

Ray I'm only joking about the garden, they've done one at Abram near to were the police station was and its made an ugly piece of land look better.

I admit Ray that you did put forward some drawings for the garden but as for "I was the one who put the project on the table in the first place" you couldnt be more wrong. The idea for developing the area certainly didnt come from you, it came from a very earlier idea. On this point I will say no more.

Having had very little input in the development of Stubshaw Cross Heritage Garden, I think you can absolve yourself of any responsibilty.

rayonline and dear ned appear to have had some kind of past fall-out, which results in childish backbiting and snide comments all the time.
And yet, their interests appear to be similar, from their posts at least...
To the rest of us (well, to me anyroad), many of their comments are meaningless and pointless, as well as spoiling some interesting and informative threads.

Jackdog.are you suggesting I should allow someone to call me a liar and make no attempt to defend myself?
Sorry I can`t do that.
SO let me first of all say this to anybody who finds this thread meaningless and pointless then please don`t read or contribute to it,
However, those of you who would want wrongs to be righted and truths to be told then you are welcome to take part.
Let me state once again that I will not say anything I can`t prove and will prove.
To dear ned....have the guts to call youself David for a start...And I once again challenge you to call a public meeting of the residents of Stubshaw Cross and bring all this out into the open where it belongs.......

Spill the beans man, Ray man! Let's hear it! Tell us the tale!

If your going to be on the jury Tonker I would hope you take it seriously... At least I do get some signs occasionally that you have some intelligence when you want to LOL...

OK Tonker ,just for you,and David, and other interested parties. Tell me its nothing for me to worry about but the brick wall surrounding the garden is now complete and the opening to the garden is in its original place....bottom front corner... now that was ok in 1890 when at worst you might get a horse and cart coming out of Woods Lane but today you get 38 ton tipper waggons, tractors and trailers from the farm, and cars and vans.....And when they turn left onto Bolton Rd. they pass within 5 feet of that entrance...and 5 feet is maximum distance.... Now I worry that one day in the future some little old lady may be trundling out of that garden in her wheelchair and get flattened by a juggernought. Somebody tell me that will never happen....Is it passed by Health & Safety or were they not informed....I know that the chap who owns the waggons was never consulted cos I`v asked him....Am I worrying for nothing? My design, which was never considered was for the opening to be located at the top corner where its safe..But the secretary/controller said it had to be as the original according to the Lottery rules. I say poppycock. but I was overruled... Am I right or wrong ..sensible answers only please....A latest photo would help if anyone can get one... MORE COMPLAINTS TO FOLLOW.....

There is a big difference here Ray and it is this:

1.I would love to be proven wrong, and to see the evidence.

2.You would hate to be proven wrong, but still you deny anyone of evidence of your claims.

3. I respect you as a person and love the fact that you are interested in the history of our village.

4. I hope in the future we can work together to collate evidence of the history of our village. ( I know I keep banging on about proof, but thats what we need)

A public meeting between two guys arguing the toss about the history of Stubshaw Cross would not invite many. So I suggest we do it in here.

Lets come clean and ask each other questions on here. I think it will be interesting and informative to let folks know what we already know.

I will start.

Did the Ashton Linen and Woollen Stock Charity purchase land called the Two Stubshaws in 1720?

David. obviously you missed my last comments.
However, the answer to your question is no.
Their records say that they did but not who they bought them from. what they actually did was purchase a lease held by a farmer and that was called a re-lease ... that was nothing to do with ownership of the actual land which was of coarse owned in perpituity by the poor of Ashton.
The proof of this lies in Lancashire Records Office in Preston in the form of a Tithe Map drawn up by Lord Gerard in 1838 and shows every field in the district and naming the owner,the tenant, the taxable value,and land description. it clearly proves that the land is owned by the poor of Ashton.NOT the charity....and will stand up in a high court as absolute proof. If you still disagree then take a lawyer to Preston and ask for an `Expert` opinion.

For Gods sake Ray , if you have proof of this then why do you choose to keep it to yourself?

So, Ray, - the Ashton Stocks Charity purchased a 'sub-lease' in 1720 (on behalf of the poor of Ashton).
Then Lord Gerrard has a tithe map drafted in 1835 (some 115 years later) showing the land to be tenanted by 'the poor of Ashton', although 'the poor of Ashton' are represented, in trust, by the Ashton Stocks Charity.

The only problem I can see here is that Wigan Council might lay claim to it all. They already have themselves as officiating and have nominated seven of their own councillors as trustees.

Now then, Wigan Council only have authority over a percentage of the 'Ancient Township of Ashton in Makerfield'.
So maybe the land would be safer if St.Helens Council, who hold authority over a substantial section of the 'Ancient Township of Ashton in Makerfield', were to be included by way of having a percentage of the trustees nominated from their section of Ashton ie: Garswood / Pewfall / Downall Green.

As it is, the charity covers poor people in the St.Helens section of Ashton just as much as in the Wigan Borough section.

The matter would have to be taken up with the charity commission.

Hi Tonker

The Ashton Linen and Woollen Stock Charity have already registered the land with the Land Registry. The Charities Commission have no problem with this.

Does it suprise you that the trustees of the charity are mostly ex labour councillors?

That's as maybe. But, why are Wigan Council officiating over the charity? They have nominated councillors from Wigan Borough Wards as trustees, but none from the St.Helens section of Ashton.
They will have the official say in matters should it come to liquidating the charity's assets. Then again, if Central Government say 'build this, there, now' it won't matter which councillor is a trustee, because they'll get their way, like it or lump it!

I can`t believe this .I tell you where the proof is and you still doubt what I say? Tell you what Tonker take David up to preston Record Officeand ask to see the 1838 Tithe map and listings book for Ashton-in-Makerfield....You will need proof of identity to show you not from another planet... You both might have problems there!!.....you will be shown a massive map about 5ft x 7 ft and a seperate book. take some photos if you can ,I did but they didn`t turn out very well....and when you come back I will accept your apology with good grace.......Tonker, I said the poor people of Ashton were the OWNERS not the tenants. there is a suptle difference you know.....As owners they were exempted from paying taxes wheras if the Charity were the owners the would have been shown as such..... They registered the land in 2004 using the grounds that as they had received a rent since 1720 then that should be sufficien grounds to obtain ownership in 2016 provided no objections come in from any other party...i.e. representatives of the poor people of AShton.....get the drift? As I have been saying for 3 years ,the charity needs to be challenged for ownership rights and the community now has far more proof of that than the charity ever had......That poor land and the land on which the cross stood belongs to Stubshaw Cross and I am sick and tired of fighting this battle on my own.....I have other proof that this charity has acted illegally and if I get enough supporters I will confront them once again...But not on my own.....

hello ray,

i have been reading your post with interest also your one regarding the making of your book.
so this is for you.

let no one steal your dreams
let no one tear apart
the burning of ambition
that fires the drive in your heart

let no one steal your dreams
let no one tell you that you can't
let no one hold you back
let no one tell you that you wont

set your sights and keep them fixed
set your sights on high
let no one steal your dreams
your only limit is the sky

let no one steal your dreams
follow your heart
follow your soul
for only when you follow them
will you feel truly whole

carol x

Iwill be glad when this ere` garden is finished then you all will be able to have a look at it, make your remarks on it, and I will be wondering then what will the next project be for you all to be arguing about in the future.

I will have a ride down to stubshie (my old village) and see what all the waffling is about with this corner entrance.

We could go to Preston Records office. OR you could just tell us what it says on the map.

but dear ned would you believe him

mother of god

Hi Ray & 'Dear Ned
I am on the outside of this debate but I do see 2 very passionate men who just happended to get their wires crossed. We should be putting all these ideas & information together to get this road stopped before it's too late!!

Ray I was down in stubshie on sat'day had a look at were the entrance to the garden is and i agree the entrance is in the wrong place, I followed the treads of were a wagon must have made and not only was the tyre threads pretty close to the entrance but they went over the curb aswell,so i would think any one in their right mind wouldn't put an entry there it will be dangerous, like you say for any one on a scooter or wheelchair.

Hi Debs

The problem here is about information. If I had information that could potentially stop an Industrial Site from being built behind my own house, then I would be screaming it from the roof-tops!
Unfortuneatly Ray Davies likes to keep the sources of his claims to himself.
Without real sources then we cannot contest any authorities. It is sad that someone with such enthusiasm and vigour for the preservation of the heritage of our area chooses not work with local groups.

I have had a look at the entrance to the garden myself and personally I reckon you would have to be either invisible, blind or completely stupid to be run over on that junction.

I saw nothing of threads over the curb.

Do you really think we would have got planning permission if there was a safety issue?

Hi Ray, I would like to add that I will support your action against the committee, is it possible to attend one of their meetings or do you have to make an appointment. Are we able to go through the facts before hand?

NED you should take a closer look tyre threads were all over the place when i was there perhaps you went down after it had a down poor of rain. but when i was there on sat`day you could plainly see tyre tracks and i'm not going blind nor am i completely stupid like you suggest anyone should be. Just lets hope no young children come running out or any youngsters on a bike happen to ride out of there, you won't be suggesting they must have been blind,completely stupid then will you.Look at the compensation pay out then won't be a bob or two.

I saw the tyre tracks Veteran. They were on the road. People have been passing that side of Bolton Rd for years and years without any injury. I repeat:

Do you really think we would have got planning permission if there was a safety issue?

Hi Debs

When you say "action against the committee", which committee are you refering to?

There hasn't been a garden there before though as there anyway time will tell there is always a first time and it could well be when you have kids running around and kids on bykes. I still think it's in the wrong place.

And oh you saw the tyre tracks eh did you have glasses on when you saw them

Hi Veteran

There HAS been a garden there before.

I had my glasses on.

"kids running around and kids on bykes".

I think you may have gone to the wrong Heritage Garden.

Isit that one were the old toilet used to be ?? that's if you know were i mean if it is I,ve been to the right one.

Any way were's the bloke who started all these threads going is he on holiday or is he not bothered now???????

Yes. Veteran ,I have been on holiday from last Friday till tonight, and boy don`t I have some catching up to do...Thanks for going down to the garden AND confirming what I said about the dangers.....David ,When you stated that it had got planning permission that ,as you well know is untrue,because planning permission was not asked for. its not needed when all you are doing is rebuilding an original wall and gateposts in the same place...As for not seeing any tracks then I suggest you didn`t want to see them,did you? You know the residents group have made a big and serious mistake and I am now calling up Health and Safety inspectors to prove it.

Debs2....Thanks for your offer of support,that means a lot to me...You can see from david`s reply just what I have had to put up with this last couple of years...But he can`t beat me cos truth ,and the facts,are on my side.You will note that he is refusing to go and find out the facts for himself at Preston because then he would have to admit that he was wrong all along and doing that is not in his make-up....As for the Charity,,one good thing that has changed recently is the new Freedom of Information Act which requires disclosure of activities such has income and expenditure to be made available to the general public.We should now discover just what they have been up to this last twenty or thirty years and interesting reading it will be.....I hope you realise that if their ownership of the land is contested and the case won then the community of Stubshaw Cross would have 9.5 acres of land right at the centre of the proposed industrial development and it can only be taken away by a Crown Court and nobody else.and they would have to have public hearings and all sorts before making a decision....Do nothing and the Charity will sell it at the first opportunity.....

azzurre, Carol....You have got me to a T ...Thanks so much and I will fight on to my last breath if I have to...

Hi Ray

You said "You can see from david`s reply just what I have had to put up with this last couple of years...But he can`t beat me cos truth ,and the facts,are on my side."

1. I am not trying to beat you, I am trying to find the truth.

2. Since MAD started I have asked you to back up your claims. NEVER have you done this.

3. NEVER have you provided any documentary evidence to back up your claims that the charity does not own the land.

4. "Its all in my head" will not stand up in court. Nor will "all the evidence is in the archives". Two quotes that you have said to me personally. Also when I asked you "Ray, where did you find this out?"
you reply " Why, do you not believe me?"


You said "You will note that he is refusing to go and find out the facts for himself at Preston because then he would have to admit that he was wrong all along and doing that is not in his make-up"

1. I am not refusing to go, I just dont see why (for the millionth time) you cant pass on any information that you have.

2. I cannot be wrong. I have made no claims. Its not that I dont believe you, I just need evidence.

3. I do not appreciate you trying to slur my character. Re: "then he would have to admit that he was wrong all along and doing that is not in his make-up"

What kind of utter nonsense is this?

Ray "When you stated that it had got planning permission that ,as you well know is untrue,because planning permission was not asked for."

We DID require planning permission and we DID apply for planning permission and we DID get planning permission.

What kind of childish game are you playing?

Ray said "I hope you realise that if their ownership of the land is contested and the case won then the community of Stubshaw Cross would have 9.5 acres of land right at the centre of the proposed industrial development and it can only be taken away by a Crown Court and nobody else.and they would have to have public hearings and all sorts before making a decision."

If need be, WMBC could compulsory purchase it in a heart-beat. Sooner than tomorrow.

If thats the garden opposite the carpet showroom at the cross, they were unloading a large block of stone this morning with the inscription Stubshaw Cross on it. Looked quite impressive

That`s the Heritage Garden alright Frank and the Cross is now in place and it looks absolutely fabulous.....In fact, I went down this morning to take some pictures whilst it still looks so good.....That is, before the vandals are let loose on it!!!! eyeup... here I go again with my now famous negativity!! Well, it is only made of WOOD!!Now who is going to be first to carve their name on it? who`s going to be first to slap graffiti all over it? and ,,Heaven forbid!! Who`s going to be first to see if it burns? Nah!!! They wouldn`t dare...Would they?

Ray in the past I have read allthe comments you have put on about our Heritage Garden and have been able to ignore them up to now. Stubshaw Cross Residents have spent many months on creating a Heritage Garden. The time and dedication that the group has shown to get this project through has been outstanding.For someone who has done nothing towards this you have an awful lot to say. your comments are ,to put it mildly uncalled for and on the whole vindictive. You should be congratulating Stubshaw Cross Residents Group for a job well done.I am sure many stubshiers will be delighted with their garden when they see the end result.

Sheila b.Welcome to Wiganworld..Where truth ,lies,fact, and fiction are all mingled together which makes it really hard for those who don`t have the inside info.to decide which is which...I have oftyen wondered why you have never come on to support me in battle for the truth to come out but now that your finally here I do hope you will finally stay with us.
By waqy of introducing you to all the others let me say that Sheila and I grew up together in Stubshaw Cross and she was the one person I could rely on to `be there` for me and never in a million years did I think she would turn against me.....
But what`s this I see Sheila ? You calling me vindictive? You saying I never lifted a finger for the Heritage Garden? I do hope its really you that said these cruel words and not merely your son David pretending to be you!!!

I`ll assume it really is you Sheila and that you will reply ..
to all my comments like the honest and truthful lady that I know you to be.Going back to my very first comment on this thread I mentioned that I thought there were several things wrong with the design of the garden.
!/ that the opening was in a very dangerous position being actually in the entrance to Woods Lane rather than on the pavement at the top.as per my rejected design...Veteran agreed with me as I know will many others as time goes by. Who wanted it there? Ken Barston the secretary of the SCRG who claimed that the Heritage Lottery funders had demanded that the garden has to be exactly as was the original garden.
My suggestion that the original garden in 1630up to 1890 didn`t even have a wall round it was shouted down by KB in one of our many arguments. This from a man who not only didn`t beleive Stubshaw Cross was ever a real cross but never believed that it was even a garden originally.
So that`s why we`re stuck with a wall round it and an opening in the wrong place. As I have said, you didn`t have 38 ton waggons running around in 1890..
2/ the CRoss is made of wood because the original cross was made of wood.... I`ll give him that one. But did we have vandals in 1630? no way. And the original cross did last long enough to get people in 1841 saying they lived by the Stubshaw Cross at the start of the population in the village... So the cross is made of wood because KB said it had to be... I wanted metal. and even david wanted stone. but once again KB got his way. Supported,of course by the rest of the committee.. So what next? How about ownership of the land? Come on Sheila. tell us all who gave away our land,our heritage, tell us who to,and why. and about the 25 year lease..and what will happen in 25 years time? Vindictive? Me? Never!!!

Many Stubshiers WILL be delighted with the garden when its finished because they are getting a grotspot cleaned up and made usable. so why not?

Ray, to move a means of access to a position facing a roadway needs planning permission.

Anyway, a 'garden' is supposed to have a lawn and greenery growing in it. That looks more like a 'Heritage Yard' than a 'Heritage Garden'!

It pains me to ask.

" the original garden in 1630up to 1890 didn`t even have a wall round it"

Any evidence ?

When you have all finished banging your heads against the proverbial wall why not try banging them against each others. You might just see then that it is about working together and not scoring points.

Some folk love a good bicker eh!

I'll tell you what Ned if that was called a garden when I was a lad in in the 40s an` 50s it was a poor do at one, I suppose like Ray says it must have been vandels that made it the way it was in those days. I don't think anyone bothered about the garden then as long as they could go for a pee they didn't care (men that is)

David, It doesn`t pain you to ask cos that seems to be your only pleasure in life,,to try and ridicule me...You have such a short memory for a young man... Don`t you recall your mother and me going to Leigh Archive Office and coming back with copies of two pages from the minute books of Ashton U.D.C.? the ones dated Oct, 1896 which stated that the urunal and wall in `our gareden` had been completed.? I still have those copies. Veteran...Do you know why that mens urinal was erected? because a mens institute had been built just across the road where the haulage garage is including a bowling green...the toilet was mainly for the members usage.......Scarlett, I`ve been banging my head against these peoples for three years now without getting too far. They don`t do any research themselves they just let me do it and pick out the bits they like....Have you noticed that dear ned/andrede/ David is always demanding proof that I`m right but never provides proof that I`m wrong?Come on David tell us where the word Stubshaw comes from....Tonker is dying to know...

Tonker ..they didn`t move the means of access ....its where it was before.... I wanted access on the top front corner because I recognised the danger. but as usual they ignored me. And I have searched the planning archives for mention of planning permission for the garden... so far no success. perhaps David will furnish me with the date it was passed...
As for a lawn and greenery I assume that`s yet to come but the design is not known to me. Or for that matter any of the other 99.9% of residents of the area ....Wonder what they are hiding from us?

David. When I first tabled the proposal the recreate the garden in August 2006 and stated that the original Cross was there nobody believed there actually was a cross at that time and it gave our village its name....Lo and behold we now have our cross again.... Who found the proof that I was right after all? or did you just decide to erect one just in case I was right? Remember when KB said that we should`t have a cross? maybe a fancy design or a statue instead? what a W.....!!!. good job he didn`t get his own way for once.

Finally,(before I go to bed).Sheila stated that I was being vindictive in criticising the SCRG for all the mistakes
they are making and I should be praising their efforts instead.... Well, If they had properly published the design befor starting work on it...For instance in the paper shop window and other prominent places and on here..So that all the residents would be aware of what they intended to do and inviting comments, then I would not have been able to complain at this too late stage and neither would anyone else, Was that too simple to do?... their monthly public meetings never get more than 9 or 10 attending anyway..and at least they would have covered their backs////

Rayonline No I didn't know why those urinals were erected'
I think the institute must have been there before my time.
Still they where very useful back when I was a lad

Ray I will go and have another look at the garden tomorrow
when I've dropped the wife of at the hospice shop in Platt Bridge.
Have you seen the garden at Abram it is very nice how they have done it, hope the one at stubshsw cross is as good.

Deleted

And here's what it used to look like.... a tip.

Jamse- I think that it will be a very nice place when it's finished like the one by Tesco's going to Ashton,
I only put the photo's on so people could see what all the talking is about

Ray, planning permission is required to completely flag over any land with non absorbent material ie: flags. Building Regulations Approval is required for it's drainage requirements.

Looking at the picture, the access is not in a dangerous position at all. Ray, you're just making mountains out of molehills.

Anyway, I think it looked OK, until that big wooden cross was put up. It looks terrible!

Plus, as I said before, that's a flagged area, a yard. There's no way that can be called a 'garden'.

Dougie - Which one, near Tesco, going to Ashton?

Fantastic photos Dougie.It certainly helps people to understand my worries.....Alright it might never happen but look at the first one.. You can see the tyre tracks of the big waggons...Now when they come out they go in three directions..right turn to Ashton...straight across down Golborne Rd. and heres the crunch one Left towards Bolton..In the picture there are no cars at that time but that is very rare cos usually there is a line waitng to turn right into Golborne Rd. So a waggon would have to go much tighter to the opening to avoid them and thats where the danger is!!!AS Veteran says they have to even go on the pavement.Nobody ,but nobody would give a guarantee in writing that nobody will get hurt or worse in future years...Any offers? Also take a close look at the very last picture... bottom right hand corner..that was damaged by a very large vehicle smacking head on into it a couple of years ago...Why take that chance when there was no problem siting the entrance where I wanted it?????

I've told you Ray. Planning permission would have to be got to change the access to one fronting a main road.

Tonker. what`s wrong with the cross? its certainly making people stop and stare! I wonder if you would have liked my version? it was four feet taller made out of rolled hollow section,galvanised, and a dramatic black powder coating with STUBSHAW CROSS on the horizontal arm in gold letters.. totally vandal proof and long lasting....I might put a picture of it on just for my ego!!!
KB made sure it never even got discussed....I wonder why we never got on???

I`m still waiting for the date of the application and the wording of it..either way it still doesn`t alter the facts as I have stated...Still think its in a safe place?

I was meaning the one next to the Tesco garage across from your friends

Ray If you ever look at my snaps I try to take them without cars or people on if I can,

'Tonker. what`s wrong with the cross'?

It looks horrible! What's it meant to represent? Christianity?

Dougie, I didn't think you had anything but good intentions.
I only posted the other pics so that others could compare the two and see the improvement.

its also lopsided needs straightening

Just the pic that danni. can't say why.
The whole thing is nowhere near finished yet. There are benches, plants and shrubs yet. We'll have to wait until it's finished.
Tonker, you know you can never please everyone.
No matter what was put there someone like yourself would have bad-mouthed it.

No one can say it is not an improvement.

Hi Ray

Re: having a wooden cross;

You said "KB made sure it never even got discussed"

It was discussed at length at meetings of Stubshaw Cross Residents Group.

this was my design in 2007

ok jamse

the fencing was 5ft.high and unclimbable.the gates were at top corner...safe and lockable...the cobblestones were genuine stubshie cobble reclaimed fromm Lily St.the cross was as I stated ,metal ,unburnable, and proudly proclaiming to all the world that this IS the birthplace of Stubshaw Cross.Further improvement would have had larger boulders around the Cross which could have been interpreted as a cross of coal bursting out through the bedrock beneath the village and on the boulders could have been brass plaques in memory of all our villages heroes of the past.i.e. war heroes,miners etc. David ...this drawing was taken by me to two meetings and it was NOT,Irepeat NOT properly discussed at them Because KB would not allow it to go on the agenda.If it was discussed at a later date then neither I nor the drawing were present.... comments please.....

Dougie I appreciate your comment about no cars and it is better shown without but we all know what its like there normally....
Tonker... it was not a religeous cross at all it was merely a signpost acting as a marker to the location of the Two Stubshaws poor fields located up Wood lane.It was highly likely that those who didn`t know that thought someone was buried there..hence the flowers and on to a garden.....remember,the cross was put there in 1630 when it was nothing but fields and not even fenced off fields at that..which is almost telling you where the name stubshaw came from !!!

Let me ask you a question.

Here's a better old photo.

The place had become an eysore.

its answers I want David ,not questions....Such as when you decided on wood did nobody suggest it might just be 1/carved on..2/graffitied on...3/burnt down?
When you decided to leave the opening where it was did you all agree that there could never,ever ,possibly be an accident. and did you guarantee that in writing?
and who the blazes chose pattern imprinted concrete crazy paving instead of real .live, and free cobbles?
And is it possible that you could start giving some answers for a change then people can try to understand your (the groups)logic......

1. We decided that we would not be held back on the quality of the project by potential vandalism.

2. We decided to base the plan on the original imprint and face the cross towards the opening on Woods Lane/ Bolton Rd. Plans were submitted and all Health and Safety checks were passed.

3. We chose the imprinted paving on advice from experts at WLCT . Its durability and ease of implementation, also its aesthetic properties made it an easy choice.

4. Do you have an owl that comes to your bedroom window and tells you what to put on this forum?

Some descriptions of the term 'GARDEN' -

*A plot of land used for the cultivation of flowers, vegetables, herbs, or fruit.

*Grounds laid out with lawn, flowers, trees, and ornamental shrubs and used for recreation or display.

*A fertile, well-cultivated region.

*Open area of greenery.


Description of the term 'YARD', 'TERRACE' or 'PATIO' -

*A paved or flagged outdoor area sometimes being within the curtilage of a house.



It should be called STUBSHAW CROSS HERITAGE YARD / TERRACE / PATIO.

I've been down to Stubshaw Cross this morning and I don't like the cross at all as for the stone work apart from the name being on it a very plai monument for a garden, as for it getting burned, graffitied on its big enough for some onenot in their own mind to hang themselves on. I think a bit smaller would have been better.There might be one or two minor bumps with car drivers snatching a look as they come down Bolton road,Golborne road, time will tell its just a thought you never know.

dearned/david ,I think you might have been better not to have given us the answers but it does confirm my fears for the worst...
1/as a group you acknowledged there could be vandalism in the garden so you decided in you infinite wisdom to give these potential vandals some juicy targets and an easy way to get in. My friends in the village(Yes I do have some left) are suggesting that a good game would be to slam some six inch nails all the way up and then nail somebody they don`t like to it and then set fire to it,,,taking photos for You Tube while they are at it...Good game,good game!!
2/I wasn`t aware that you knew what the `original imprint looked like or which way it was facing. so given that none of you believed a cross once stood there in the first place you have made good progress in your historical research. Not even I knew that...Who`s keeping secrets now?..Just tell us all when these plans were submitted then we can see for ourselves exactly how you fooled H & S.
3/Pattern imprinted concrete. now thats a good one You should have asked me for advice on that one as I used to work for a national supplier selling
the stuff .. First of all its very expensive. I do hope you chose the fibreglass impregnated type that resists cracking on expansion.and i hope the resin finish is thick enough to resist fading..and you could at least have chosen imitation cobbles (THe most popular one) instead of cheap looking crazy paving which incidently will be like a skating rink when it freezes over in winter.
I can`t decide whether your trying to re-create the past or step into the future but they definately did not have pattern imprinted concrete in 1630. Did They?
4/ Yes.I do have a wise old owl visiting me to give me advice..I tried to get him to call on you on the way home ..I said you only lived two hundred yards away .. He said no way!! So I said well call on KB then,he only lives 50 yards away and he said ¬ WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM? A WOODPECKER?
In conclusion, You people have been given£82,000 to to spend on making Stubshaw Cross a place to be proud of and to recognise and celebrate our heritage.Thank god I can`t be blamed for the end result...

jamse.. yes that is a better photo cos it shows not one but two almighty collisions with the original posts so how can anyone say its a safe place to have an entrance to a garden which young children,mothers with children and old folk will be encouraged to use at all times of day?

ya know those brick pillars all round it? Pick one each and bang your heads against them repeatedly till some sense is knocked in. And they say kids fall out !!!

Danni. I did say very early on in this thread that if your not involved or interested in this subject then don`t come into it..I just happen to take the welfare and heritage of my birthplace seriously as I have a right to do. Your comments are not helpful at all...This forum has given me and others a voice which I was deprived of by petty control freaks so please don`t help them by suggesting I don`t talk sense about a suject that I have spent many,many hours researching .All for nothing if they get their own way.And kids don`t usually get £82,000 to play with anyway....

she always has to try to involved in things.

Take no notice of her.

Take all that 5h1t concrete up and plant some grass. Plant a few shrubs around the area. Put two or three forms in it and then, only then, will it be a garden!
When it's a garden, people will be attracted to it and will go in there, sit on a form and have a chat, just like they did in the olden days.

It looks repulsive. It's a concrete jungle. And that cross looks 5h1t!

Hi Tonker

Jamse said "The whole thing is nowhere near finished yet. There are benches, plants and shrubs yet."

All the words are there and in the correct order. What is it that you dont understand about the above quote? Let me ask you a question.

Hi Ray

I didnt say "a wise old owl".
I just said an owl. Just one. One owl.

like Danni says... your childish......Have you decided when that planning application meeting took place yet?
Grown up answers to grown up questions please......

Why don't you both meet up at 8 in the morning in your Heritage Garden and take all your paperwork and don't leave there until you have sorted out who has what and who is right etc. This will save all this childish behaviour which doesn't make either of you appear grown up.

There's no grass. A large percentage is taken up by 5h1te concrete. It needs GRASS to be a garden.
Plants and shrubs don't grow in concrete, they grow in dirt!

And that cross will just frighten folk away. That's not a 'direction' cross, it looks like one from a crematorium.

Then again, I don't live there so I couldn't give a toss but I thought I'd give my opinion, as a neutral outsider!

Tonker, be patient as David says ,its not finished yet.There are still some more nightmares to come..No doubt the wrought iron railing are right now being manufactured to go on top of the wall. How tall will they be David? 1ft,2ft,3ft, 4ft,? will they keep the vandals out? Will they have sharp spikes on top so that the little darlings might slip and spear their throats? can`t wait........
Are you keeping Rebecca from the Heritage Lottery informed of your progress or are you frightened of telling her in case she takes the money back.(48,000).Perhaps I should contact her and tell her to take a look at this thread and maybe she will put us all right about the criteria she requires..Especially that bit about getting the villagers involved and keeping us informed publicly rather than secretly just doing what you want and then telling us to like it or lump it>>>>

I`d much rather meet you broady. I`v always wanted to go to Canada.....But seriously ,meeting up is a great idea as I have offered to do on many occasions... but not just with David but with the whole committee.and all my friends in the village. I`m sorry you think I`m childish but maybe if you knew the whole story then you just might change your mind and offer me verbal support instead.

I did not mean to say I thought you were childish. What I meant to say that your arguments came across as being childish. As you say there is certainly some history in the debate that I/ We aren't aware of.

Incidentally you would probably like Canada very much. There are some beautiful sights. I live in Calgary and we have a permanent view of the Rockies.

Broady says, 'I live in Calgary and we have a permanent view of the Rockies.

he crashed is plane , take note ray

That Garden/Yard is not politically correct

It is C**p. Some garden that is!

There is clearly a case here of religious discrimination going on here, the Garden/Yard discriminates against Jews and Catholics

"so please don`t help them by suggesting I don`t talk sense about a suject that I have spent many,many hours researching"

Didnt say you werent talking sense ray. My comment was made in the following context: why cant you work together instead of scrapping like a bunch of big kids.???

Why is some one from Scholes (danni0 getting involved in this thread?.

She should keep her nose out of Ashton.

At least get my name right Bungle, and its being funded by lottery money and I play the lottery ergo its my money so I have an interest.

Danni.If indeed you are interested then any sensible input from you would be most welcome and I agree that it is a community garden and will always be open to aa comers.
apls your tongue in cheek remark is actually nearer the truth than you might think....at least the catholics bit because it all started with Henry viii banning the catholic religion in the 16th century...
broady...My son and grandson have just come back from a holiday in Canada where his wife has relatives near Toronto...My wife and I are hopeful of making a visit in the future....

Going back to a comment from jamse that the garden will look very nice compared to how it looked when it was a jungle grotspot can I suggest that if I hadn`t have discovered it true history and taken it the SCRG as a restoration projectthe its most likely that it would have simply become one of Nigel Ash`s clean-up projects and a bulldozer would have just flattened it out and overlaid it with grass just like that patch next to it and the birthplace and heritage site of the village would have gone for ever...even a nice patch of grass would have been better looking than the jungle,don`t you think? I`m not looking for praise for discovering it because it all came about by accident while I was researching something else.
But I`m still not taking blame for how its turned out!!!

Ray, Henry 8th did NOT ban the catholic religion in the 16th century. He banned the Roman Authority over Christianity.
The Catholic religion (Christianity in it's original form) is the main religion in this country, at present. With Islam gaining ground!

Oh aye that's reet Tonker, Protestants are Catholics and Catholics are actually Roman Catholics, because yon mon in't Vatican who wears that funny hat, is main mon of the Roman Catholic faith and Henry the 8th towd yon mon from't Vatican, to sling his hook from England and to prove point he burn't down all't monastries in't country and proclaimed himself head of the catholic faith in England and renamed it the Church of England

Whatever he did he did it to get shut of Catherine of Aragon and marry his bit of crumpet Ann Boleyn. The point I was making is that it led to catholics being persecuted and some like Lord Gerard having their land taken off them as recusants and given to Protestants which is exactly what happened in Ashton and led to gifts of poor ground beingmade to communities... Hence the Two Stubshaws.....You`ll not need to buy my book if I carry on.......

Well, no actually, APLS.
High Church of England (Anglican) isn't protestant. Protestants are against the orthodox Christian (Catholic) creed, whether it's Roman or not.
The Church of England is in line with the Catholic creed.

Methodists, Baptists and breakaway sub. branches of the Church of England are protestant.
If I can remember rightly!

Ray, I'll not be buying your book regardless.

Tonker, In that case I`ll cross you off my christmas card list as well......

I'm very interested in your book Ray...I'll be buying it, let me know when its published please....

Thanks for that molly. And thanks to this wonderfull WW website I`ll be able to let the whole world know...and as a bonus we`ll all know something that the all-knowing Tonker doesn`t know.....Where the name Stubshaw came from.....LOL

Message for dear ned/david.......I have tonight e-mailed Rebecca Mason who is the Your Heritage Lottery funding manager making an official complaint that the committee of the Stubshaw Cross Residents Group are not complying to the rules and conditions relating to the application for funding and requested that she withholds the remainder of the grant pending an investigation as to why they are not involving the residents of the community in the key decisions of the garden design and are in fact alienating themselves from the people they represent.... I have asked for a public meeting to which all are invited and hopefully wrongs can be righted and harmony restored...I have done this in response to the growing number of people who are critising in no uncertain terms the state of the garden as it stands so far,in particular the cross...

Ray on a lighter note.

Will your book be published in our life time.

The garden is an eyesore, and there is still £48.000 to be spent on it (am I right about that,) total waste of money.

Why did they not do something for the people, maybe a darby and Joan club for the elderly, or a youth club come coffee bar for the young one's to keep them of the street, ( the young one's I mean )there is no where for them to go nowadays, just the pubs or the parksno dance's like we had.

I feel very sorry for the young people today...

Trixie, Before I answer your question darling please tell me when your planning to pop off and don`t make it soon....I`d hate to lose another order....LOL
Answer, I`d like to make a proper job of this book so don`t rush me.....

Ok.Ray.I may be around then?lol

Yes i agree,don't rush.

The garden does'nt sound to popular.

typical woman danni, wants to have a say on every thing but is willing to do nothing.

rayonline, i applaud your passion for your home town and will also be reading your book, i spent part of my youth in and around stubshaw and am intrigued as to its past, sadly we now live in a throw away world and its looks like the heritage garden is thus designed, keep up the pressure for a garden like the victorians designed, built to last.

massumbula. thank you so much for your encouragement and you are so right in all you say because I live in a victorian terraced house ,built 1894. and I can honestly say its a far better house than when it was first built given that I have spent 48 years improving it,,and its as solid as the rock it is built on....unlike my son`s house,only 5 years old and plasterboard walls......Yes, I have to keep up the pressure now because too many people are agreeing with me...My friends at the local convenience store say that nearly everybody thay comes in say the cross won`t last five years......
their even taking bets on who will be the first one crucified on it. O how I wish I had not walked away from that group 18 months ago but I just couldn`t take anymore(just like Tom Jones said...lol)

Victorian Garden, wow.....that would be great.

I don't live in Stubshire so its nothing to do with me really, but I do pass every day....

molly, I`m not sure if a victorian garden would stand up to today`s vandalisation extremes ...that`s why my design was aimed more at being as vandalproof as possibe but once it was secured there would be no reason why we could not include some victorian styles within it..As I said I had located these cobbles down Lily St. that we could have had for free and they are victorian but they gave us pattern imprinted concrete ,for heaven`s sake!!...Incidently, there is a possibility that the old labour club/snooker club that Tommy Barton is renovating could include usage as a community centre as well ,so the rumour goes....that would be great.

Dear all,

Just a friendly message and some information and facts for you all. Planning permission was applied for and received by Planning on 18/08/2008 and validated on 01/09/2008. A decision was made on 27/10/2008 and Planning Permission was granted with 3 conditions. Those conditions have now been discharged. The details are free for all to see on the Council’s website – the application reference is A/08/71855. The application also involved the submission of a ‘design and access statement’ which was approved. Highways engineers were also given the opportunity to comment on the project and had no issues with access, etc. Planning requires notices to be published on site so that residents can have the opportunity to voice their opinions – subsequently those affected would have been made aware of the proposed development.

The original garden – according to old OS maps and other research, appears to have been built in the late 1920s to mid 30s. The strict HLF funding criteria was adhered to and the layout is typical of the period. There will also be decorative steel panels integrated into the railings which will sit on top of the wall. These will reflect local history and heritage. The final stage of the garden will be the planting of many species of flowering shrubs and trees. It is anticipated that the site will become part of a heritage/art trail and will prove a valuable education resource. The design follows the original footprint as true as possible but with minor compromises to conform to current legislation, etc. The final details of the design were by local consultation, advice and consensus.

In addressing the definition of garden; it originates from an Old Persian name which was then adopted by the Greeks as Paradeisos (Paradise) which defined a pleasure ground - a plot enclosed by walls; inside which plants were grown. These early gardens contained seating to relax, paving to walk around the plot and many species of flowering plants and trees. The old council records describe the original Stubshaw garden as a ‘rest garden’ – indeed there were a few throughout the Borough. The Council records also show that there was only hardstanding and shrubs/trees in the garden – grass was never on the maintenance inventory.

This is just information and is not intended as bias to anyone’s argument. There is a lot of passion here and I don’t intend to be drawn into debate. The garden will not be to everyone’s taste – each individual has their own imprinted vision of what a garden should look like. I wish you all well.

Let's hear it in favour of a 'religious style' cross as opposed to a 'directions post'?

mister Jrh,thank you.Perhaps the Heritage Garden can be finished without interferance from people who evidently know nothing about the project. We look forward to seeing the garden finished.

My gast is absolutely flabbered!!!!!For everyones information the writer of the post headed misterjrh is Mr John Harris an employee of the Wigan Leisure & Culture Trust who was commissioned by the SCRG to design the garden based on the scant information provided by KB.
I now know who will be the first one nailed to the cross...Poor john,,,He was such a nice chap...Not only nailed to the cross but hung,drawn,and quartered as well....
Did you notice that John never once mentioned it was a Heritage Garden and yet Sheila,who really knows better,called it just that....
John, If the garden was only built in 1920/30 does that mean there never was a Stubshaw Cross?...So why stick a big horrible Cross up anyway? Just to impress the passers-by?
Tell me John...is there a law against perverting the course of history? If there is then either you or me will go to prison... To be continued.....

From the planning application -

'Sculpture in British grown hardwood from sustainable plantation and crafted by local artist'

'Plynth constructed from reclaimed local sandstone and crafted by local stonemason'

HA HA HAAA HA HAAAAAAA!




AND, Wave my Private Parts at Your Aunties!


PS., Ray, the planning applications 'proposal' was described as -

'To create heritage garden including associated landscaping, new access and erection of memorial sculpture'.

I'd like to know what the erected 'memorial sculpture' is supposed to be in 'memorium' of?

I'd also like to know where's the 'sculpture'? That cross can hardly be called a sculpture, it's just a plain cross made out of two pieces of eight by four, fastened together with a halving joint!

* Another £48,000 to be spent on it!?
Jesus of Nazareth! It wouldn't have cost that much to put a pair of semis on that plot!

John. Having now read the complete documentation on the planning consent I`m sorry to inform you that you have committed a serious breech of the planning regulations related to withholding vital information in order to obtain planning consent and I now have no alternative but to report the matter to the relavent authority.. However, because I believe that you acted on unsafe information from the SCRG I will hold back for a period of one week to allow you to meet me one to one and discuss it in a civil manner..As for the SCRG .I can honestly say that your actions and decisions do nothing for the honour and integrity of our village...To deny our true heritage is in my book a cardinal sin and you should hang your heads in shame.....

Handbags at Nine Paces!

I really like it, obviously lots of work and commitment gone into the project by a group of people who are trying to do good for their community.

Well done to you all!

'I really like it ........ Well done to you all'!

That's a first!

Over to you, Ray ...

serendipity.its ok by me that you like the monument and I totally agree that a lot of hard work has gone into the creation ofthe garden up to now. However,What you may not understand is that the original intention of the project was to recreate, and recognise,the birth and the heritage of the village right from the very beginning. In that respect the cross totally misrepresents the meaning of the original cross..It was a signpost...nothing more,nothing less...and it didn`t say `STUBSHAW CROSS` on it...It more than likely said `the two stubshaws`on it ...and it wasn`t written on a stone plinth at the base.It was on the cross arm like all ordinary signposts plain for all to see without getting down on your knees,,,,And one more thing this recreation is not just for your benefit or mine...It was for the benefit of our children,and our children`s children,and all future generations so that they will not have to ask the questions and get the wrong answers just because these people who created this garden today failed to seek out the truth and settled for much less. they have sold our heritage short and all I want to do is to correct their mistakes ....Am I wrong for that?

On the subject of vandalism, look what happened to those poor cows in Aspull

Ray you have let them pull it out of you HeHe,so now we all know the origin of the name Stubshaw Cross,
Stubshaw Cross is also known locale as number 10 at Bingo ??? why,
(don't say roman letter X is a cross thus Stubshie Cross number 10)

Dougie,,,,So now you can tell Tonker what the name STUBSHAW means...........Well come on then tell him ......He`s waiting with baited breath....lol

I bet he's gone on his holidays.

Hi Trixie.. Sorry to tell you but my book and video project may have to be abandoned.....I am trying to persuade them to either change the design of that awful cross or remove it altogether and erect another one more in line with the real history.... I don`t think they will take to kindly to that,coming from me,so I will be meeting the Heritage Lottery case officer first to explain my reasons if she won`t play ball then that`s it for me......Unlike them I won`t compromise the truth......

I'm very sorry to here that Ray,I was really lookin forward to reading it.

I understand how you feel...

Sorry to hear that Ray, I was looking forward to reading that book, oh I do wish they would move that awful cross, whatever were they thinking of, very soon it will be covered in graffiti and I shudder to think what else.

Everybody I ask says the same thing molly and I will be meeting the Heritage officer shortly and I hope she agrees with me that the cross must go....I promise though that should I fail to pursuade them then I will reveal everything I know of the history and then let them dare try to say anything different.....Watch this space....

Good to hear Ray.

How come there's a cross on your design from 2007 Ray?

Yeah, Ray, you fraud!

Ooooh you tinker Tonker!

its a signpost

You are quite correct Danni... My design is a signpost shaped like a cross but with certain words on the arm which makes it obvious that it is indeed a signpost...
Not only that. mine would have been completely vandalproof and more impressive.. being even taller coloured black with letters in gold
To further implement the authenticity of the Stubshaw Cross did you know that both the Bryn Cross and the Ashton Cross were also signposts with a direct connection to ours?

Well you could walk to bryn cross down past the unmentionable across the fields.Past pimbletts farm.

So it wasn't a cross - but was just "cross shaped" - right - erm... ok.

So - a cross "shape" is ok as long as it isn't a cross.

I need a lie down now!

Oy. Because you are your father`s son(And you know what I mean) I`ll be patient with you.. I didn`t want to disclose this just yet but the words on the horizontal arm should read`The Two Stubshaws` preceded by an arrow pointing up Woods lane to where the Poor fields of that name are...In other words a signpost...which was in the shape of a cross which was a very common practise in the 17th. century.as proof of that both the other two crosses were also signposts shaped as crosses.
Trixie...I didn`t mean a physical connection as in you can walk between them,I meant that the crosses were erected for the same purpose ....

Ah right - I got confused because the "cross" on your design sketch clearly says "STUBSHAW CROSS"

Now that I know what you had planned - I definitely prefer the new one. A "signpost" pointing to somewhere that no longer exists seems a strange idea.

If the original needs homage paying to it - then I think a nice plaque giving the history of the place would suffice.

I thought the 'directions' cross at Stubshaw Cross would be in the form of an 'X', as was the case at Bryn 'Cross' and Ashton 'Cross' and the many Finger Post's that there seems to be. Here and there. In fact, there's a Finger Post at Aspull errr., cross, which is, indeed, in the form of a 'X' cross, not a '+' cross.
Here we go, here we go, here we go, 'cos them's the only words that we know, o.
Stubshaw Cross, Stubshaw Cross, Stubshaw Cross.
Stubshaw Cro - oss, Stub - shaw - Cross!

Oranjeboom, Orangeboom, it's a lager not a tune (Oranjeboom Super, 8.5% £1.19 from Hughes the Booze, makes you see double and knocks 10 years off the wife!)

oy. I do hope you havn`t been `got at` by the ruling party as it seems to me. However, as I said ,I will try to answer your questions as best I can until the penny drops....
My original cross did indeed have the words Stubshaw Cross on it buut that was in 2007....I have continued my research since then and am constantly updating things accordingly
The TWO STUBSHAWS does still exist and always will do. I have a copy of the land registry map from 2004 clearly showing that the Charity laid claim to ownership to it and naming it as such. If it wants to do the community can counter claim that land back and I can provide proof of ownership aqs I have said before...
You say you prefer the `new ` one buthow long will it look new? What would happen if it got set on fire? Think that won`t Happen? Well I`ll tell you something now that will cause many sleepless nights to the `committee`...
The other night I was talking to a local lad that was a scallywag a couple of years ago but he has matured a bit now and we are quite friendly. I asked him what he thought of the cross...He said it won`t last two minutes... I said what do you mean? he said some of the lads he knows won`t be able to resist having a crack at it......So what do you say to that?? time will tell won`t it....Hope they kept a bit of money to one side for another one and maybe next time they just might get it right..

Tonker

Orangeboom super ,You could go and drink that in the
Heritage garden




Because its the beer not often drunk indoors

Ok - so Two Stubshaws still exists. What exactly is there now?

What's there for someone to see if they follow your "cross-shaped signpost." Is whatever is there accessible to the public? Are there plans for some sort of plaque explaining the history?

BTW - I haven't been "Got at" by anyone - I'm just trying to be fair and get my head round what you mean rather than simply dismissing your ideas because you're not popular with "Them men". As you say - I'm my Father's Son

Oy... glad your still `freelance`
the two stubshaws are currently disguised as part of a large wheat field cultivated by Tommy Barton who pays a rent to the Charity who in turn are supposed to help the needy of Ashton. To get to it you would have to go through the gate that tommy has put up to keep his dog under control but it is still a right of way supposedly,

Its all gone quiet in the garden this last few days.Guess they`re cracking on with getting the wrought iron fencing done before they plant the trees and flowers ... I `broke `in the other morning for a close up..Do you know what? I felt a very strange sort of peaceful feeling come over me....Maybe I could get used to it when its finished....Except that.. for me...the worst has still to come .......

Maybe you sit and finish your book in there.

You could keep your eye on it while your in there.

Been pasted the garden today some one was there sat on flags
I think he was taking the plastic wraping of a metal seat

Went to the garden this morning as I saw them putting the fencing up...Its school railing in minature...only 2 ft. high.I could easily climb over it myself .and ....it was made in Birmingam!!!! So much for using local firms....I could have done that myself in my back garage... That`s what I used to do anyway, and the trees and shrubs are going in now....So completion time is coming close...Every body is invited to the opening ceremonybut please don`t critisise cos at least its better than that jungle.And for better or worse it is the actual birthplace of Stubshaw Cross...

Ray what date for the opening of the garden????

I`ll let you know when I know veteran....I am told by a reliable source that Tommy Woodward and Florrie Corless will do the honours..That bit I approve of!!!.

Yes I agree with you there but Florrie Corless dosn't come to my mind as yet I must know the name, must say it rings a bell in my mind. you've got me thinking now.

Is she related to a HILDA CORLESS?

First time I've seen this thread, I have seen the garden being built over time, and I agree thats a stupid place for an entrance. Its on an incline, kids / prams/ scooters/pedestrians /wheelchairs/ bikes, ALL increase speed when on an incline, and they could be hidden by the bloody gateposts until they are right out on the track.If shrubs are to be planted that will grow higher than that wall, which lets face it is more than likely, that also will hinder the view of anyone exiting the garden and coming down the pavement.
Its not rocket science, its common sense, you don't put an exit leading onto a road or track, in particular when its pointing downhill.
I don't suppose it will be put right though, judging from the amount of "pride getting in the way" in this thread, someone would have to admit they were wrong and opt to back the other side up.

Florrie is the decendant of one of the first inhabitants of Stubshaw Cross, James Corless,who lived in a cottage on the poor fields land next to the charity farm. the farmer`s name at that time was Henry(Harry) Wood who gave the name of Wood Lane as it is now known. Everybody knows Tommy Woodward of course but I don`t think anybody but me knows that chosing Tommy has a special significance other that the fact that he is one of the oldest residents who can still walk.....CAN ANYBODY GUESS WHAT IT IS?/////

Empress.......Everything you say is absolutely spot on!!!
I don`t know who you are but I suspect your parents are old Stubshiers? Anyway .what frustrated me is that as soon as I realised that they were going to use the existing entrance it was when they were doing the footings and had plenty of time to change the design I compained to the site foreman and he didn`t want to know...I complained to the SCRG bchairman and a committee member.....nothing was done.
If, as you say someone gets killed or injured who will take the blame? Not me. Just look further up this thread at my design and note where my proposed entrance was.... I did that because I was aware of the danger but they wouldn`t listen......Too late now.....

Its been suggested to me that I form a group called`THE FRIENDS OF STUBSHAW CROSS` with the aim of righting wrongs such as changing that cross for a less destructable one,,,reclaiming the garden from Lord Gerard because its community land,and more importantly reclaiming the Two Stubshaws` poor fields to its rightful owners, me and you,,,
Do I have any volunteers to help start this group? Its open to everybody including those of you that were born here.or who`s parents were born here...Members of the present SCRG group need not apply unless your prepared to resign.....Names please..........

I know that Tommy was past fit to drive I think his age is about 91 or near that. give us a clue Ray of what you know about Tommy that we don't

My grandparents lived stubshaw, also aunts / uncles, my dad when he was younger.I'm a bryner originally, now in Abram.
The garden will be lovely when shrubs go in, but the entrance being relocated is a must.
If you look at the picture the pavement is dropped, likely due to the increased use of mobility scooters, now these can reach a fair speed, especially on an incline and there are more and more being used all the time. They tend to stop at a main road , but are very likely to just keep going at that spot.Once shrubs are in and growing they wouldn't be seen by vehicles exiting till the last second.Same with small children.
Its common sense , its needs to be moved before theres an accident.I understand them wanting to follow the original design, and I'm 100% for keeping things unspoiled and not modernising everything,when its practical, but that original garden was designed before cars, wheelchairs and traffic.

Veteran...its not actually about Tommy himself its about his surname...
On the 1838 tithe map in Preston record office it shows that the two fields immediately above the garden were named as `Woodwards Fields` and that seems to indicate that the Woodward family have been around for hundreds of years....wonder if Tommy knows that!!!

Empress.....Knew you had some Stubshie blood in yer girl!!!!! The Heritage Lottery case manager has so far refused to meet me because she thinks that so far the SCRG committee have got it right so I have asked her to look at this thread on WW and see if she changes her mind.Your comments are common sense and should not be ignored..And more and more people are saying the cross will be vandalised.....That`s not something I want to see but I think its inevitable....All the shrubs are in now and some young trees ,including one blocking the view of the cross but it does look lovely once your inside the garden..pity the wall and the top of the cross is all that passers by in cars will see.

Once the garden is officially opened I will make it my mission to make that garden a place that all of Stubshie will be proud of and when I`ve done everybody will know the true history and be able to pass that on to future generations....

Yes I agree it will look nice when all the shrubs are in and matured, I also think the entrance is in a very dangerous place and should be moved.

To late now but for me the money could have been used for something more benificial to the people, especially the young, nothing for them at all here.

Well if Lottery case manager does come read this , this is for her/ him.

Garden is lovely, worth every penny spent on it. However those original plans were drawn up before there was so much traffic on our roads. Before dropped curbstones, before mobility scooters and definately before the population was so HUGE. Thats a busy area and a very busy junction opposite, theres a lot to 'look at' before actually exiting that track to start with.Its simply not worth risking an accident for whats probably a minimal cost to just relocate the entrance. In fact its probably cheaper than someone being sued later on if there is an accident.The fact its on an incline speeds up scooters, kids on bikes, even a pedestrian, shrubs will also block the view eventually.I'm a mum of 2 kids, and step mum to 3 little girls also, I know we need eyes in the backs of our heads already, having an exit that leads onto a track that vehicles use is just not a good idea. I've also been a carer, and know the speeds our lovely old folk like to reach on the scooters.
Take another look at it,WITHOUT thinking about a budget.Difficult I know because everyone works to a budget nowadays, but try to see it as an outsider and see what dangers there really are.

Empress, I take in what you say and agree with you 100% but as the garden is now nearing completion and the opening ceremony is due I will now hold back on any further criticism until later on...I went past in the car today and saw that the entrance architecture is in place,and very impressive it looks too....I hope we get a good turnout for the opening and then we can give Tommy and Florrie a big cheer....

Ray - any news yet on when the opening ceremony will be held?

Oy.. I called in today to have a closer look at it all and had a chat with the lads doing the gates.Its really good quality stuff and as an ex Steel fabricator I complemented them on a good job...They are from Burscough and as usual I found myself giving them a history lesson which,unlike some people,they appreciated...There doesn`t seem to be more than another days work from the fencing lads from Birmingham. So possibly this weekend? I don`t think they`ll tell me personally but I`m sure they`ll announce it properly. And As I said I hope its a good turnout and I promise to be on my best behaviour,,,,unless provoked of course!!!Hope your still taking photos!!!

There is a great deal of speculation about whether the cross is a religeous symbol or as I said,A signpost...Go on to the `Free Online Dictionary` and ask for the ancient definition of the word `CRUCIAL` it will tell you that is from the old latin word of CRUX or cross and was used to describe a cross shaped signpost. I`m not clever,,,I just do the research....

From the planning application -

'Sculpture in British grown hardwood from sustainable plantation and crafted by local artist'

'Plynth constructed from reclaimed local sandstone and crafted by local stonemason'


However, Ray just tells us - 'Gates are from Burscough, Fencing from Birmingham' .....

So much for the 'local' trade support, eh.?

I totally agree with you Tonker...( for once in a while)
But that`s what you get when the contract goes to `English Landscapes` which is a national company....I never went past Landgate Industrial estate for my original quotes...But that`s water under the bridge now so let`s wait until after the opening ceremony and then we can spend the rest of our sad little lives bitching about what should have been......

I have to say I think that the garden is starting to look fantastic, went past today and was very impressed with the designs around the outside. My friends have also been commenting on how good it looks. Well done to all of those involved! I can't wait for it to open and go and have a sit in it.

Serendipity.......I have promised not to criticise the garden any further until AFTER the opening ceremony but then I will invite anyone who cares to take part to meet me in the garden and discuss what it is and what it could have been.. including its entire history.........I agree that its so much better than it was a few short months ago but you may be surprised to hear the truth of it all....

Work on the garden seems to have stopped....Wonder if they`ve run out of money? Or has Lord Gerard changed his mind?

The people on this project may be on holidays or sumat like that could be they're fed up with all the bantering on this thread

it will be finished to-day about 5.00pm take it from me,will just pop up to take some photo's be back on in the hour with photo's to add to this post

This is myself the first man to have his photo taken in the finished garden at 4.30pm 17/08/09

Thanks very much Dougie for the photos.They are lovely.
It looks like a good job to me.
I don't care what anybody else says.

Dougie.... Great Photos as usual...That phone box was being removed... at 6pm it was 20 metres further up.......Trixie...You won`t want to listen to my rantings then? Sometimes the truth hurts!!!

Ray it had to be finished by 5.00pm so I was the first person to have his photo taken in the garden after it was officially finished,they had just cleaned it all up at 4.30 and was going home,so I asked one of them to take my photo by the cross HeHe (I did put it on then deleted it)

Your too modest Dougie..You should have left it on...On the other hand???? Maybe I should be the first one??? Hang on!!! I`ll go get me camera.........Be back in half an hour.....LOL.

Dammit.... I couldn`t find any flashbulbs!!!

Ray will have a bet with you that within the next year, we will see it in the paper some unlucky lad that is out on a stag night will be chained to the cross or railings and left over night, or it could be you

Hey up.Dougie your givin um ideas already.
Does anybody want any wood to build a shed?

Hi Ray i'm not there so i am not biased.
I don't know whats gone on really.

Yes it looks ok now that its finished hope it looks like that in a few months especially when the dark nights are here nobody will see what ever is going on then unless it gets a couple of lights on it. It will be look out for the needles johny.

Its funny that there have been so many comments on this threadabout all the negative things that could happen to it in the future , and I`m as guilty as anybody in that respect...but with a little more thought and common sense everything about the garden could have been so much better ... why,Oh Why could they not have opened out the discussions to a wider audience than the pitiful few who attend these monthly meetings and ask for ideas on design on the internet?We are in the modern age of communication now and if people like Veteran,Trixie, Empress,Tonker,Dougie.Debbie,Oy.Mollie17 and many more of us would have had the chance to have an input into the final result and thus saved an awful lot of critism which does nothing for the community spirit which is ,after all, what it is all about......I`ll offer just one example....If you had a choice of that wall round it or an open metal fence just like that one round the christmas tree in the Town Green garden...Which would you chose? Just look again at Dougie`s photo from OUTSIDE the garden and notice how little can be seen of the plants and flowers INSIDE...With an open fence the whole of the garden which,next year will be a blaze of glorious colour hopefully... would be seen,and enjoyed,by the thousands of passers by who will not enter the garden at any time in their lives but will talk about what they see to everybody they meet ......And we did not need to have that wall despite what they will try to argue because the original garden didn`t have a wall.....And what else would you change?

Yes I agree with you on that one Ray i was past the other day and could only see the walls andthe cross,tell the people that you know who as made this garden go and have a look at the in Abram that as got railings round and it looks great, I would rather have a garden like that because you can see the flowers when you drive past. I wonder what comments are made riding past the Abram garden when people on the busses can see the flowers.????
I will go and have a look at the Stubshaw cross garden when it is finished and opened to the public , any idea when that will be or am i to late???

The ceremony will be at 1pm. on Friday Sept. 4th.....And guess what? I`ll be on holiday.... How did they Know? In the meantime the garden is now open to the public on a `preview` basis.

I dont know Ray but is the panels at both sides of the gate something to do with the head gear of a coal mine

Scaramouche! Scaramouche! Will you do the Fandango?

Cheeeeeese and Dog Meeeeeeat!

That`s right Dougie...We were surrounded by pits of course. The gate itself has a rose ,a shamrock,a daffodil, and a thistle I think. this was in recognition of themany nationalities who came here to work in the mines. My Dad workrd at No.9 pit at the time of the explosion and my grandad worked at Mains pit.
There is also a profile of the Victoria Cross in honour of Billy Keneally V.C. who is also going to have a plaque put up somewhere....paid for by the British Legion....Given the part my own dad played in the great war this upsets me somewhat but maybe I can sneak one in during the night.There is no way I`m going to beg `them` for permission..

As this is the 200th post to a thread that I thought might be somewhat boring at first.....I claim that dubious honour!!!

'Never let your codpiece dangle in the dust'! (201)

Tonker.Have you been for a medical checkup lately?

I went down to the garden an 4.30 this afternoon an sat on the bench trying to imagine what it will look like next year when all the flowers will be in bloom...I was looking forward to early spring when the snowdrops and crocuses pop up to tell us winter is nearly over.. And the we will get hundreds of golden daffodills,then tulips, and lots of poppies(the Flanders variety to remind me of my dad and all the fallen heroes) and then I got up and examined the ground where all these flowers would be....What did I find? 3 inches of bark chippings on top of a layer of plastic anti-weed sheets...yet another nightmare!!! who on earth made that decision? No doubt they will say they wanted a low maintenance garden so what happened to getting the community involved then ??????????? So its NO flowers next year just plants that we can only sit and look at....

Ray,can the locals not plant some?

Or is it a silly question.
I might come and plant some daffs and bring my Mam.
She always anklin after going back there to live.

I don`t think you understood Trixie... you would have to remove the bark and thesheeting before you came to any soil and thats a major job.....The contractor must have laid it that way under instruction from somebody and its time someone came up with answers to all these cock-ups....

I must admit i did notice the "POUSY" plants.

What is the sheeting in aid of.bark was enough.

I suppose we would be classed as "vandals" what a shame.

The sheeting is to stop the weeds from growing and that`s fair enough but they were supposed to leave it about a foot or so short of the edge to allow for the community and especially the school kids to plant the bulbs in autumn...now I was there at the meeting when this was decided so who or what changed their minds needs to be explained ,... And I am sure the Lottery people did not condone this because it was a major part of their requisite on the application form....

I'll bet 'the lottery people' don't know that the patterned concrete had to be done twice. The first attempt had to be taken up and relaid because it had been done in the rain. Not very professional.
But, hey, who cares when there's so much money in the kitty? They'll just pay twice!

That pattern-imprinted concrete was a complete waste of money and totally unnecessary.I submitted an idea to take up genuine cobbles from round Lily St.that are now completely submerged in grass The council told me we could have them. all they needed was a good power wash and they would have come up brilliantly. Cost only labour content. It was rejected because they claimed it was a bad surface for wheelchairs wmich is completely untrue because they are flat topped .. they didn`t even bother to go round to see them...I walk on the exposed part every day.....Just another reason why I walked out on them in disgust!!!

Well Ray the garden looks better than it did in the 40/50s perhaps the 60s when it had just a toilet on rubbish all over the place. Will go down and have a look myself on the
4th September might meet someone I knew from my days in Stubshaw Cross (I wonder)??

To us,as lads,itwas just a garden with a toilet. nothing spectacular.. but what if we, and our ancesters had always known it was the actual birthplace of the Stubshaw Cross as far back as 1630? That it was the very reason for the name of the village? would we,as a community have treated it with a little more respect?...I think we might have....And we would never have let it get into that state...
Now, All I have to do is to prove to everybody that what I say is true.....That`s why I wanted to write a book! But first,some wrongs have to be put right...

Ray, Stubshaw Cross wasn't 'born' and Stubshaw Cross isn't a 'village'.
Stubshaw Cross is a section of the town of Ashton in Makerfield.

Before you write your book, I suggest you 'put right' your own misconceptions.

And as you so often ram down our throats Tonker,Ashton-in-Makerfield is NOT a town....its a district,or an area consisting of various seperately named areas,or villages,or districts within a particular border and given a singular,collective name just for convenience....And for someone who still doesn`t know exactly where the name Stubshaw came from you can hardly call yourself an authority on the matter.....A misconception is something that isn`t based on fact.(a bit like your opinion) I am quite happy that my statement IS based on fact.Most villages usually start around a farm,which provides food,a church which provides religeous sustinance,or an Inn,which provides drinkypoos,etc.....Would you agree with that? and I am talking about hundreds of years ago before the industrial revolution. According to the 1841 Census There was a farm on the poor ground known as the Two Stubshaws..Next to the farm was two small cottages.and further down Wood lane were three more cottages plus another farm...When asked where they lived, they all said `Stubshaw Cross`.... NOT Ashton,Not Wigan,but Stubshaw Cross. Do you know why they said that? No other occupants of houses in that area mentioned Stubshaw Cross. The next port of call was the Ram`s Head Inn and then Edge Green lane..The cross was fashioned,or created,by a man named John Launder in 1630 and placed in that same spot as the new cross is placed because he wanted people to know just where the poor fields were situated because they were out of sight of the main thoroughfare..So he created the cross and the cross created the village.As I am always saying Tonker, I have put in many,many hours of painstaking research before making my statements.all at my own expense and time.I suggest you use the same criteria before you try to damage my credibility......

Ray says, "Ashton-in-Makerfield is NOT a town"

YOU are WRONG! Cheeeeeesey!

By all definitions of a 'town', Ashton in Makerfield suits the title. Stubshaw Cross is one, of many, 'settlements' within the 'town' of Ashton in Makerfield.

Ashton lost it's 'district' title when it was merged with other 'districts' to form a Metropolitan Borough in 1972.

IT'S A TOWN!

What is a settlement then Tonker? Ask Google....a settlement is where people settle... could be a house,a village,a town.a city, a planet.....Why don`t you go and settle on the moon tonker and leave us ordinary ,ignorant,villagers in peace???...One minute I`m talking about a place that was created(born) 380 years ago and next minute YOUR talking about today......things change,,,,Ashton-in-Makerfield didn`t exist when Stubshaw became a village in its own right.. now is that clear to you or are you going to change the subject again to suit your egotistical righteousness?

Ray. Before the Norman Conquest, Ashton was a part of Newton, as was Wigan.
After the Conquest, and the Domesday Book, Ashton was formed as a separate Manor along with other towns, however Wigan was retained with Newton.
The first record made of Ashton, as a Manor, was in 1212.
That was over 400 years BEFORE Stubshaw Cross was named (according to your 1630 theory).

The title 'Village', Ray, has a meaning.
So has the title of 'Town'.

Stubshaw Cross is neither a town or a village.

Example: Wigan is a town - Swinley is a part of Wigan. Scholes is a part of Wigan. Whelley is a part of Wigan.

Ashton is a town - Bryn is part of Ashton. Downall Green is part of Ashton. Garswood is part of Ashton. Stubshaw Cross is part of Ashton.

Whilst on the subject, a 'Metropolitan Borough' is a political area, it isn't a town. An 'Urban District' is a political area, it isn't a town.

Don't try to re-write over 900 years of RECORDED HISTORY.

Tonker, you are so boring.....for the last time Stubshaw Cross as a name,or settlement or whatever you fancy calling it did not exist in any shape or form before that cross was planted in 1630 by John Launder. and if the cross had not been planted then Stubshaw Cross would not exist today in whatever form you fancy calling it......now give it a rest....

Ray, I think it's very nice, you writing a book about the history of Stubshaw Cross. Good luck to you with your book.

BUT ......

When you start coming out with rubbish, you need to be told!

YOU said that Stubshaw Cross was there before Ashton. YOU insist on calling Stubshaw Cross a 'village'. Both Rubbish!

YOU claim to know the answers to everything Stubshaw Cross. If you do, great!
Tell us about it. Ww'll listen. BUT, don't talk 5h1te.

God above Tonker, do you ever see anything in front of your eyes? I said that Stubshaw Cross was there before ASHTON-IN-MAKERFIELD not the town of Ashton. And I have NEVER claimed I know everthing about Stubshaw Cross.( but I do know where the name came from)And if you really want to belittle our village come and shout it round here that it doesn`t exist in its own right....If you dare!!!

The 'Makerfield Hundred', Ray, dates back to the 12th Century.
Ashton has been in, or 'part of', Makerfield since then.

Stubshaw Cross is still a part of it too. It has NO right of it's own. It doesn't possess a title. It isn't a listed place.

And, you'd be surprised at what I do dare.

Hey how I do like you two goin` on I've learned a lot obout Stubshaw Cross and Ashton in the last few weeks than i have ever known its been a good history lesson better than in my school days

PS are we going to have a winner in all this arguing

Flippin eck, Tonker, you pretend to be precise but you're far from perfect at expressing yourself clearly. For example, you don't appear to understand the difference between its and it's. So, what other errors, of ignorance or carelessness, might you be passing off as factual in your many apparently-definitive proclamations...?
As we have seen before, all your 'knowledge' comes from books. It's (ooohhhh eck) nowhere near as valuable, or as authoritative, as the real local knowledge possessed by the true Ashtonians who post on here. And please stop using that fart picture. It's (yes it is) boring in its (blimey) repetitiveness.

I think 99 1/2% of people in these places Downall Green,Stubshaw Cross etc,call them villages so i think your out numbered Tonker

Trixie, Tonker is never wrong!!!!!You and Veteran and I were NOT born in Stubshaw Cross we were born in Ashton-in-Makerfield because Stubshaw Cross never existed....I will now have to change my birth certificate,I will have to change the address of the house I was born in because North St. is not in Stubshaw Cross. I will have to change the address on the deeds of my house.....I ,and you , will have to stop calling ourselves `Stubshiers` OH! Woe is me!! I have nothing left to live for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand Councillor Nigel Ash has been officially invited to attend the opening ceremony of the garden at 1pm. Sept 4th. I wonder if I`ll get an official invitation..........To stay away!!!!!!

Woooo Ray don't go,we all can't live without you.....

Woooo Trixie.....I got the breakaway blues....(can`t live without you etc.) Tell you what. We`ll have an official re-opening day the day after.then we can tell the truth about our fantastic heritage garden....because there is sure going to be some lies told on the 4th.

Woo thats a relief,i thowt tha wer goint slit thi throat Ray.
Fortunately it is my birthday on the 4th sept and i send my appologies for not attending the opening as i will have better things to do......
Thats if my invitation is in the post.

Ray I have the photo of the man that was the first to open the gates and have is photo taken after its completion on the 17th August 2009 @ 4.30pm

I think that there should be one in the post for me

Ray so I lied when I went for my medical at Pownall square
Liverpool when i got my call up papers might have the
(red caps) militery police coming for me

Got some more info on the opening ceremony....Friday the 4th. at 1pm...All the local councillors will be there plus the local press and Lancashire Life as well.There will be speeches and whatever.A video as well .... Now..There is just a remote possibility that I will be able to attend as I will only be going out mid afternoon as soon as my daughter arrives home......I would like to see if they are going to answer questions like ....What does Stubshaw mean...Is it a cross,a monument or a signpost......who put it there,and why,and when......Who does the land belong to? I wonder if their answers are going to be same as mine??? there is also going to be a regular heritage trail fromthe garden every month. and a history night in late October,And a booklet is being published along with a DVD.....saves me the trouble.....BE THERE!!!!!!

Ray,

Just remind me where Stubshaw starts and where it ends. Is it much more than a mile long. Incidentally my Grandparents lived in Stubshaw and I think my Dad went to school there for a while.

Might see you there then Ray, lost most of me hair since you've last seen me any way if see you i will come and have a chat ok??

Broady...Stubshie started in Woods Lane with the cross being on the corner with Bolton Rd. There is no answer to where it ends because like a piece of elastic it stretches and stretches as new houses are built and of course with the advent of postcodes there is no longer a need to quote the full address on your mailing address .For instance I live on Bolton Rd. about a 1/4 mile down from the garden and although my deeds (dated 1892) says it is Stubshaw Cross I no longer add that bit to my address.....Shame on me!!!!

Veteran ...If I do get down there you can be sure I will shout your name atthe top of my voice.although I won`t be able to stay long.....

I'll be there - hoping to get a possible cover photo for Borough Life magazine.

I bet it rains LOL!

Oy.they will have their own reporter and photographer but I reckon we can do a better job between us so if you sabotage the photos I`ll sabotage the write-up in the interests of historical accuracy.... I alread have their editorial address

Sorry to miss it...

Ray - who are "They" that have their own photographer and reporter?

I've been booked officially for this shoot via work. So THEY maybe ME LOL!

Man! You are a star......Can you take one of me sitting on top of the cross?.......that would create a stir lol!

They may nail you to it Ray

I`m sure they would like to but as long as they don`t try to gag me that`s ok because I`m ready to `squeal` like a stuck pig as the saying goes.....
Trixe..... behave yourself....

Some photos from today's opening ceremony.

I'll let others say who's who - I left my notebook at work

Excellent shots oy particularly the one with the ribbon just cut.

Nice to see Mick Keneally there with the Victoria Cross proudly on display

Frank its a very good photo that of Mick, -OY- Dav if you see this would it be O.K. to print one off and frame it for Mick, but I think he would have one by now off someone that will not have asked you first,(I would still give him one in a frame )

Sure Dougie - I can give you a better quality one to print if you like.

Thanks for that Dav but the photo will be fine, I'll print it off on canvas A4 size and put it in a nice frame without the glass,there much better that way

For Dav to look at it was taken with a flash I've put taken by -OY- on the back

That photo will not print at photo quality and A4 - but hey what do I know?

Printed it off its a first class photo, you stick to taken the good photo's i'll do the stealing, still got the one you took of Rivington in my computer room

Ok mate - you know best

I`m back.....I managed to catch the opening ceremony and I kept suitably anonymous in the background and was also suitable ignored by most of the dignatories. But I was delighted to meet my old pal Veteran for a chat but was peeved to see he looked 10 years younger than me even though he is only two years younger.....you must have been wearing makeup you old codger....lol...I did see oy but he was always too close to the enemies for me to make contact but another time perhaps.......As for the photos exellent as usual but I am now a little bit puzzled about the medals Mick Keneally was showing because the second from the left (the one with the crossed swords) is the Mons Star which was only awarded to those who survived the first Ypres campaign in august to november 1914. Now I know that medal well because my father Jack Davies was awarded it along with his M.M and he was at that time with the 5th Manchesters. But according to the war records THe 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers which was Billy`s regiment was not at Ypres but were at Karachi at that time....is there a siple explanation for this? Incidentally Billy`s younger brother Frank(Francis) was Killed in action at first Ypres aged 20 and he would have known my dad who lived just across the road on Bolton Rd. Stubshie. Not trying to belittle Billy in any way cos they were all heroes to me but it is puzzling me ... Can anyone find out?

Mick had another set of medals in his pocket from another relative - maybe they've got mixed up over the years.

You should have grabbed me for a chat Ray - stuff the politics

The first medal was definately the Victoria Cross second one The Mons Star so no mix up but I`m sure there is a simple answer...We will meet up oy that`s for sure because I`m wanting a good camera buff to come with me and others on a mission to the Lancashire Records office at Preston to take some photos of the 1838 Tithe Map and records book and its a difficult task becaude of the size and conditions etc, You or Dougie or even both of you would be ideal....Its very important to secure proof of ownership of both the cross and the Two Stubshaws poor field in an attempt to win them back for the community.

I'd be happy to help Ray. I've got the necessary kit for photographing records etc - done a bit of that in my professional capacity.

Thanks Oy, I will officially book you then...I will have to set things up and I would like one of the doubting thomas`s from the residents group to come with us..Not K.B. but Sheilab would be preferable if they will allow her. I am hoping to gatecrash this Tuesday`s first Heritage trail starting from the garden at 2pm and I won`t be so shy at asking questions from now on.... that will be fun!!!!.... first question will be what does the name Stubshaw mean...and if they can`t answer then I will....so ,everyone be there!!!

Met Tommy Woodward this morning.. he said he wasn`t too pleased that he wasn`t mentioned anywhere about his involvement at Dunkirk and I said `tha`ll aft wait till tha deud tommy` He said ` well I waint see it then,will I? Some simple logic in that I suppose....

Hi hey who you callin` an owd codger?/

Was you there at about the time that a white van turned in at the opposite side to the gates he went at some fair speed and over the edge of the pavement and nobody took one bit of notice and said anything that is the kind of thing that the kids and parents should be aware of when they are down there.I was standing on the corner at the time I wish i'd had a camera with me.

I wouldn't of minded coming on that Heritage trail on Tuesday but my old codger legs won't let me, so I will wait to read any comments you have later in the week Ray.

I think Tommy looked a bit unsure what he had to do last Sat`day Ray he looked a bit lost to me.

Didn't like a few of the people with suits on niether.

That so called loud speaker was a waste of time couldn't hear what was being said half the time.

Medal information: William Kenealy's medal would be the 1914/15 Star, a campaign medal awarded to all who fought in any theatre of war between August 1914 and 3 December 1915, so William's service in Gallipoli qualified. The Mons Star (1914 Star) was only awarded to those who fought between 5th August 1914 and 22nd November 1914 which was the end of the first battle of Ypres. Thus his brother Francis who was presumed killed by 7 November 1914 would qualify for the Mons Star.

Dav--OY-- Gave Mick the photo he was over the moon with it, he thanked me and asked me to thank you for him for letting me copy it
I know you know all about printing photo,s but it looked realy good on good quality canvas (not that cheap canvas paper you can get)you don't get any light reflection off it

Heritagelass....Thanks for helping me clear it up .as you say the second medal is the 1914-15 Star which is very similar to the Mons Star but your slightly wrong in that the Mons Star was only awarded to those who survived the retreat from Mons(hence the name) so Francis wouldn`t have qualified sadly.... the other two medals are the British War medal and the Victory medal and all three medals were collectively known as Pip,Squeak,and Wilfred. My father got the Mons star at the age of 17 and as such did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star ...My father went from Ypres to Suvla Bay(Gallipolli) and landed just two months after Billy was killed....My father was slightly wounded at Suvla Bay but not enough to stop him from being at the Somme and the 2nd Ypres later where he got more seriously wounded but still miraculously survived...incidently he was a stretcherbearer and as such was in big demand as you can imagine......

Veteran(the old codger)I backed out of turning up on the so-called heritage trail because I saw the article in thePostnewspaper and I was so annoyed I decided it was best not to confront them just yet as I would most surely have lost my temper. For someone who had £82,000 of our lottery money to play with you would have thought they could have come up a more accurate description of our villages History before now but no ,not them . You know ,what really gets me is thatthey had someone in that crowd who could have,and should have provided them with a lot of answers.Namely Councillor Walter Carney who is a recognised historian with a vast knowledge of the Gerard Family history which is the main source of my own research.Why O Why have they not sought his help.... could it be political?
I took my dog for a walk instead and I met the former chairman of the residents group ,Alan who I have become good friend with,and who left for similar reasons as I did...and he told me that he was talking to a very experienced historian from Wigan who confirmed that all I have been saying is true and that the Stubshaw Cross was erected in the 17th.century and was indeed a signpost and not a cross....I was quite pleased to hear that,and more confirmations will come out now that its all gone public....

Veteran. I`m not surprised that old Tommy looked a bit unsure about what to do last Saturday seeing that the opening day was on a FRIDAY.... Now come on vet.less of those`senior` moments please

Hey Ray I didn't realise i'd put sat`day I wouldn't mind but I read it back to make sure every thing was right. are you sure your older than me

I called into the garden today for the first time since the opening and I didn`t exactly have to fight my way in through a queue....I fact I have not yet seen anybody in it but I could be wrong of course.Or could it be too boring to attract the masses?
Anyway I read the wording on the notice board and O dear they have got it wrong,surprise,surprise........yet more mistakes... It would be funny if I didn`t care so much about the history of the village how they have sold it so short and got it so wrong.... So,Once again I am issuing a challenge to the creators of this cock-up to meet me in that garden and I will tell them why they have wasted so much of our precious money and if they can prove to me that they have done everything right and correct I will gladly retire to a mental home... So that`s me against all the committee,all the councillors, any historians they can find ,their solicitors,anyone who likes the garden as it is,Lord Gerard. and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all if they want....So come on, name your time and date and lets get this sorted once and for all.......

Well Ray they probably don't live there,so what the heck.they don't care a fig.
they just want to "gag" you.

Fnaaaar!

Helloooo long time no read...

I've been on a Crusade!

Ad any good arguments arguments along the way?

Not this time, but when I catch up with a London skulduggerer who owes me a lot of money, I will have!

wooooooo tell me has somebody robbed you?

Just looking at the photo higher up the page, I had to laugh, why is it that men always have to put their watch, wallet, and specs in he nearest object available.?

Such a lovely ornament to, bet his wife is furious.

Well, its 8 days since the official opening an although I go past every day at least once I have never seen anyone in it yet.Surely someone somewhere has paid it a visit if only to rest their legs?

And I still have no reply from those who I challenged to meet me in the garden. Could it be that they don`t care about the mistakes they made or are they frightened of admitting them.....Either way they are not doing the village heritage any justice.....If they don`t hurry up they won`t like my next move.............

By God Ray you really mean to get this lot right I hope you manage it because soemone as wasted a lot of money on that garden. On about seeing nobody there I bet you will only see the older people of STUBSHIE going to use the benches, because I don't think the young kids will bother unless you get some of the older ones causing trouble.

Message to Oy..... Dave.....The documents I want photos of are duplicated in Ashton Libary in a locked meeting room ..I have permission to take photos but we have to book an appointment ...can you contact me and we can arrange it asap. I`m in the phonebook.. I don`t have your E-Mail addy....

Veteran..I have no choice but to`get it right`because it seems that no one else will if I don`t......My next step is to take a video in the garden and showing all the errors they made together with how I thought it should have been done in compliance with the heritage history and I will prove how wrong they have got the history side of it....Then I will post a copy on You Tube and on this thread and if necessary to the media......People need to know how many thousands of pounds of our money they have wasted on unnecessary things while still missing out so much of importance to the future ....Their sheer arrogance in ignoring me has only made me more determined to bring the truth out.....

This is a garden at Abram done by the residents....Note that the flowers can be seen clearly through TWO lots of open fencing

This is Stubshaw Cross garden from the same type of view....Where are the flowers? £82,000 spent so that the priveledged few can `enjoy` it yet thousands of passing motorist only see a wall despite their contributions to the lottery money....Who said that wall is lovely? and it certainly wasn`t nec essary......

I told you Ray what Abram garden was its a lot better than the Stubshaw cross garden

Just think what they could have done with £82,000 Veteran!!!

This is the information board showing the location of the Two Stubshaws poor fields except that its not there its further up the map and has actually been cut off...So people are now even getting the wrong information from the information map.. That is really unforgiveable and will most certainly have to be corrected...Some people might say who cares buthow can you start building up a picture of our heritage without getting any of it rightin the beginning?...Come on David,this was your mistake...make an excuse if you can!!!!

SYMBOLS ON THE GARDEN
`The cross represents our village and possibly the site of an ancient cross`
What a feeble explanation....The `cross` is NOT a cross at all..It is a signpost...In the middle ages many signposts were in the shape of a cross and were called CRUCIALS which was latin and meaning `A cross shaped signpost` look it up on Googles Online Dictionary(Ancient meanings)...
The Wheat Symbol.....The Two Stubshaws was NOT a Wheatfield in the 17th.century ...It was pasture land used for grazing purposes and was in fact an Inclosure...(Ask Google again)
I wonder if all those contributors would like to know their money has gone to all this duff information?

To hell with it!!!In for a penny,infor a pound!!!!
I am now going to finally disclose exactly what the Two Stubshaws means and where our village got its name from...
Its a description of the poor fields exactly as the benefactor found them in 1630.
A stub is what remains of a tree after it has been cut down to waist level ..in other words a stump....And there were two of them close together.......A shaw is a ditch usually round a field.... the ditch was created as a barrier to stop sheep from escaping and a crude gate was put up between the two stubbs hence the inclosure was a big sheep pen... This info can be found in a book written by David Mills in 1976 called`Place Names of Lancashire
So the Stubshaw Cross can only be related to the Two Stubshaws and can only be a signpost!!!!! It took me a long time to find out this information so dont question it please!!!!

Ray, I always thought that 'Shaw' was Olde English, meaning 'Woods' or 'Copse'. As in 'Shaw' (near Oldham).
A few other people think that too, ie: them men who write the Oxford Dictionary!
They also reckon a 'Stub Shaw' was the remainder of a woods after it had been cleared for agricultural purposes.

But what do they know. Anybody would think they'd seen it written in old records. Silly Buggers.

Tonker, Sometimes your cleverness goes beyond common sense.
If an area of woodland had been cleared for agricultural purposes there wouldn`t be a stub left in the place or the plough would break?

We are talking about a man giving a field to the poor... if it was a copse it wouldn`t be a field it would be a wood woodent it? Now pay attention....A lot of stubs is whats left of a lot of trees,,,or a wood.... but TWO stubs is what is left of two trees get it? Now a shaw means several things but David Mills describes it as a type of coppice ,or hollow in the ground possibly with a thicket at the bottom but can often be found round the edge of a field,,,, Now Mills specialised in giving meanings to olde englishe names and his word is good enough for me given that it perfectly describes what John Launder must have found in 1630 ... And that was a field for grazing sheep who were penned in and was an ideal present for those poor people who were lucky enough to have a couple of sheep and desperately needed pasture land.
..

Right.....This thread has got too long now so I am switching my campaign onto the new thread entitled `I Need A Photographer` on which Oy has kindly placed some maps and book pages for me taken in Ashton Library.........>>>>>>>

My ggg grandfather was Israel Heyes.

And although this in itself does not confer me with any real authority; I have spent a great deal of time researching 19th century records. Names tend to stick long after the reasons for them have disappeared. And the etymology of copse depends on whether the place name is norse or Gaelic in origin.

But even the OED states that a shaw may sometimes mean the edge of a copse, and that implies that you both are right.

It's hard to imagine that the "Cross" was ever meant to signify the religious symbol, as there are dozens of censuses from the period that list any junction--whether of neighborhood or road--as Cross.

Ariel..I hope you are suitably proud that your ancester was one of the first inhabitants of our village....Do you still have any connections with Stubshaw Cross by any chance? Heyes has always been a local name .....
Mills states that Shaw is an old english local slang name fo scaega which was a nordic name for a copse or a run of thickets significantly placed around a field to enclose animals ...this ties in perfectly with my findings of why Launder chose the two stubshaws to gift to the poor of ashton as a place where they could collectively keep their sheep and cattle in a safe place in 1630.
My book will show the lead up to that event and indeed the aftermath....And as you say, He had to put the cross where it is as a signpost because if he hadn`t have done noone would have known that the field existed.....If you can look at an old english dictionary you will find that a `cruciate` is described as `a cross shaped signpost` and is a much more common sight as people realise....If you interested in helping me with my book you would be most welcome....

By the Moses in the Bullrushes!, still with us then, Ray?

Any news of my demise has been greatly exaggerated Tonker.Probablyby those who may have wished my apparent disapearance to have been permanent to allow them to continue their dastardly deeds in peace.....more fool they....Twas but a lull in the storm before the tempest to come.....Beware the Ides of March!!!

I'd love to help Ray, but I live in Brooklyn. Israel Heyes'
granddaughter, Mary Robinson (nee Hornby)immigrated to Massachusetts with her daughter (my grandmother) Frances in 1914.

I do subscribe to ancestry, and I have spent an awful lot of time reading on-line parish registers, but I suspect you do the same.

I do have a question to which someone there might have an answer. Although my grandmother Frances Hornby was Catholic as was her mother Mary, Israel Heyes' name suggests he was probably some form of non-conforming Protestant. Anyone know?

Also, if Ray or anyone else is interested, I have more information about the Israel Heyes family. I don't, however, know any other living descendants--that is, other than my own American cousins.

Warmly,

Ariel

Beware all u stubshie'ites the brotherhood is back

Did Israel have a brother named Isaac?

Will you lot leave Ray alone..

SPACE ......... the final frontier!

Tonker--

I'm assuming this is an Issac Hayes (Motown) joke? As I grew up in Motown, I'm all the more amused. Otherwise, I'd say that if he had, his last name would have been Hasleden, as John Hasleden, Israel's father, did not marry Peggy Heyes until a few years after Israel's birth.

'I'm assuming this is an Issac Hayes (Motown) joke?'

No. I was serious. (ahem.)

OK--I missed the link, and I misspelled Isaac twice. You're a tough crowd, even for a Detroit girl.

Ariel.Tonker is very seldom serious and is best taken with a pinch of salt.....On the other hand I take my history very seriously...to the point of being boring to many people......However I would be very interested inreceiving as much information as possible about Isaac Heyes and his descendants for my book along with the other families. Please feel free to put any info on this thread and I will appreciate it...

Ray says, "I would be very interested inreceiving as much information as possible about Isaac Heyes and his descendants for my book along with the other families".

( can't stop laughing! )

Ladies and Gentlemen - Tamla Motown proudly presents - from Stubshaw Cross, England .......................



Ray, you should have your nostrils 'Stapled' to the skirting board for that one!

As for 'families, there's always Limmy and the Family Cooking. Or Sly and the Family Stone. Were they from Stubshaw Cross too?

Ray--

Thanks for the invitation. I'll post all I know (and provide links where they're available to the supporting documentation) sometime this weekend.

I've been reading Robert Lowe's diaries. Amazing how so many of the names he mentions come up again and again in my family tree. A lot of inter-marrying. This would explain our marsupial tails.

And by the way, Tonker, according to parish records, there were three Isaac Heyes born in Leigh (which I believe is close to Ashton-In-Makerfield) in the 19th century.

Oh Ariel you may be opening a can of worms...

Why Trixie, I for one am proud of my marsupial tail!

Sorry it's the mere mention of "close" to Ashton-In-Makerfield.

This is my favourite topic on ww.

I see. Well, by "close" let's say I mean within fifty miles.

Thanks for the warning though. I'm unfamiliar with the local customs. Though I seem to recall that my Lancashire grandparents were rather scalding in their wit.

Well you being a mate of Tonker's you would get some enjoyment from his postings.

Lets just say Ariel, Tonker's customs and the locals customs are never the same.

Tonker is a good customer,

What on earth are you suggesting Hughes the BOOZE ?

Hey the garden looks good and is full of flowers.

Ray will be pleased bet he's down there right now having a look

Veteran. I did as you said and went down to take a look at all these new flowers H the B mentioned.....He was pulling our leg.....remember all the negative comments I made on this thread last September....Its all coming true...just like we forecast...Its awefull!!..weeds are sprouting up all over the place.dozens of bushes have died.inside the fence round the cross is a jungle...no flowers except round the outside of the cross. the two white rose bushes have greenfly.the cross itself is lifeless and plain.The vandalised pillars have not been repaired.And worst of all....NOBODY seems to care....Its not a Heritage Garden,Its not a Community garden...Its not even a garden...Ive got more colour in my 10ft sq. front garden...And if anybody thinks I`me just a bitter,griping old man then go and look for yourselves then come back on here and say so....All because Mr Barston thought he knew best!!!

I was past the garden on teusday still looks in a mess and like you say the 2 pillers have not been seen to yet, all that hulabalo at the opening eh were are those people now???
should be ashamed of themselves.

I was in there the other day and I really like it.

Needs some weeding done, and some of the shrubs need replacing and the capping posts. All of which were discussed at the last meeting and are being dealt with. Most of the shrubbery is coming along well and in the future we will see the design come together.

Its not a daffodil's and pansies garden. Its so much better than that. Time will show you that. There has been a lot of thought gone into creating something unique. We could have just filled it with flowers to make an impact but we chose not to.