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John Rutter b1900?
Started by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Could anyone help me with further information about a John Rutter, b 21st May 1900, and his wife Elizabeth E (Probably Ellen) b 13th January 1905? At the time of the 1939 register they were living at 74 Beech Hall Avenue in Wigan, he was down as a plumber, she was entered as a saleswoman / demonstrator.Both came from the Wigan area.
I'd especially like to know anything about the parentage of either. I'm not sure of her surname prior to marriage, although I do have a few possibles.
Thank you for any help you may be able to offer.

Posted by: gaffer (6015)   Report abuse
John’s father James married Elizabeth Glover in 1873.

Posted by: Weatherwax (312) Report abuse
I don't know if this is the Family you are after, as you don't have many finer details. If it is, I can carry on tracing them.
On the 1901 Census, There is a John Rutter living with his parents, siblings and StepSiblings at 22,Ormskirk Road. The Parents are John and Ruth. Married in 1899. He was born in Pemberton, and she was born in St Helens. It is a second Marriage for her, Her previous married name was Duckworth, and she was a Widow on her marriage to John. She has brought Three Children with her, and given birth to Two more to John... John 1900, and Alice A 1899.
On the 1911 Census, They are living at Scot Lane, Marsh Green, and have another Child Ethel 1902. John is an Engine Fitter.
If this sounds like Your John Rutter's Family. I will carry on searching.

Posted by: tonker (19602)   Report abuse
I know a Tony Rutter and his son Michael Rutter. I raced Tony years ago but had to give it up because I ran out of money!

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Weatherwax, I have very little other than the information I have given, other than I think Elizabeth Ellen, who seemed to be known as "Nellie" to friends and family, died in 1995, it seems at 16 Beech Grove, Beech Hill in Wigan.
I'd most like to know anything about her family and ancestry, especially, as other informal information from older family members leads me to believe she may have been a very early child of a member of my OH's grandfather, although her maiden surname would not have been the same.
I'd already got the "John & Ruth" pairing, as well as the "James & Elizabeth", Gaffer one down for further exploration on John Rutter's side.
Thank you both for your helpful replies.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
1905 GALLIGAN Elizabeth Ellen GALLIGAN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/240/413
1927 RUTTER John GALLAGAN Nellie Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/165/67
A possibility that her unmarried mother Mary married Edward Conway in 1915 this would suggest Mary had Nellie in her early teens.

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Now, mygriffiths: that's the lady I though might be Elizabeth Ellen. I'd searched through B M D and noted down (yes, it was a huge job) ALL the John Rutters who married anyone with a name like Elizabeth Ellen, and was still in the process of eliminating as many as possible.... you'll know how tedious that can be.
Now I can try to set about trying to find out a bit more about her mother.... Thank you.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
I suppose birth and marriage certificates would establish if Mary was her mother and if Edward Conway was listed on Nellie's marriage.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
This cemetery entry suggests Mary was up to three years older.Interesting to see the name Ellen.

Conway
Conway Mary Ellen 60 yrs 30 Canal St. Woodhouse Lane 15-Oct 1949 Married 19-408 R C
Conway Edward 82 yrs Ladywell Hospital, Salford 12-Jun 1965 Labourer
281, Barnsley St. 19-408 R C
Conway Edward 53 yrs Wigan Infirmary 04-Oct 1973 Clerk
281, Barnsley St. Wigan 19-408 R C
Conway Eva Martha 83 yrs Wigan Infirmary 25-Sep 2006 27, Greenfields, Beech Hill 19-408 R C

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
1911 Census details
First name(s) Mary Ellen
Last name Galligan
Relationship Servant
Marital status Single
Sex Female
Age 22
Birth year 1889
Birth place Wigan Lancs
Occupation Domestic
House name Collier S Arms
House number 70
Street Frog Lane
Address Collier's Arms 70 Frog Lane Wigan
Parish Wigan
County Lancashire
Country England
Archive reference RG14
Registration district Wigan
Registration district number 458
Enumeration district 42
District number 42
Sub district Wigan
Sub district number 3
Census reference RG14PN23014 RG78PN1345 RD458 SD3 ED42 SN80
RG78 code number 1345
Piece number 23014
No sign of Nellie so maybe not the same Mary

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
were do you get the mothers first name from please

Posted by: gaffer (6015)   Report abuse
Threlfallia

If you buy a death certificate Eilzabeth’s maiden name will be shown on it.
She died in October 1995 in Wigan.

The district number is 0181D
The registration number is D1B
The entry number is 128

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Yes, I've got that in train, Gaffer.I'd actually got those details, and intend to order the certificate.
The area Mary (mum probably of Elizabeth Ellen) was in 1911 seems very right, but I seem to have found a couple more Mary Gilligan / Gallaghan etc in the right area and ages -been scouring round Ancestry for the last hour, mygriffiths, as you may have guessed. thank you again.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
Winnie, just looking for clues of a Galligan/Gilligan marriage in Wigan between 1905-1927 only one was a Mary and will need to be checked with certificates.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
This 1901 census from 9 Hey Street off Frog Lane
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Mary E Ryan Head Widow Female 25 1876 Wigan, Lancashire, England Charwoman (Domestic) Transcription
Rose A Gallagan Sister Single Female 20 1881 Wigan, Lancashire, England Cotton Spinner Transcription
Margaret A Hoolin Visitor Single Female 23 1878 Wigan, Lancashire, England Charwoman (Domestic) Transcription
Elizabeth Gallagan Visitor Single Female 11 1890 Wigan, Lancashire, England - Transcription
Mary R Ryan Daughter Single Female 2 1899 Wigan, Lancashire, England

Margaret Ann Hoolin married my grandmother's brother.

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Oh, and my starting point was knowing her job, and her husband's name, from family, and finding both, with right ages in the 1939 Register.Back to Ancestry!

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Think the family in Beech Hill Cemetery must be the right lot, just chases up young Edward's marriage to an Eva M Bussell - that fits!
Really getting into this now - who needs dinner?

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
From the 1891 census Mary Ellen and Rose Ann had two other sisters
Margaret 1883 and Ellen 1886.

The widowed Mary Ryan married John Hoolin in 1901
Elizabeth married Seth Mottler in 1910.
Elizabeth Ellen is not with either in 1911.

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
You got there just before me! Thanks, mygriffiths!

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Hi Threlfallia,

So you've got a case again! I don't do much these days as I have health issues, but I would have tried to help you!!! It was fun the last time and a challenge. I have been in Budapest and only returned this afternoon. So, I am not into this case yet. It does seem that mygriffiths is right in his presumption that Elizabeth Ellen was born Galligan in 1905 and that the maiden name of the mother was Galligan. But where is this child in 1911?? And was her mother's name really Mary???

I'll browse around a bit.

Linda

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
I think I have this - Nellie was the daughter of the sister Margaret who married Alfred Robinson in 1908 and is with them on the 1911 census
1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
6 Fosters Buildings Wigan, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Learn more

Print View image Start free family tree Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Alfred Robinson Husband Married Male 24 1887 Lanc Born in Appleybridge Coal Miner Hewer Transcription
Margaret Robinson Wife Married Female 27 1884 Frog Lane Wigan - Transcription
Nellie Robinson Daughter Single Female 6 1905 Frog Lane Wigan - Transcription
Elsie Robinson Daughter Single Female 2 1909 Frog Lane Wigan

This address is where my father was born in 1924

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
Baptism: 31 May 1886 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Alfred Robinson - [Child] of Thomas Robinson & Catherine
Born: 23 Mar
Abode: Appleby Bridge
Occupation: Blacksmith
Baptised by: H F Lloyd Curate
Register: Baptisms 1884 - 1886, Page 332, Entry 2651
Source: LDS Film 1885686
Alfred was my grandfather's cousin

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Mygriffiths, You're quicker than I am!! I'd just written this household down, but I'd been looking at all the Nellies born in Wigan in 1905! and the area Frog Lane seemed interesting. I was about to look up Margaret's maiden name!!

Linda

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Margaret and Alfred only married in 1908, so both Nellie and Elsie would have been born Gallagans. Wonder whether he was the father or not (???) or whether the girls had the same father.

Not much wiser really, are we? What was the name of the ancestor who may have been related to Nellie Gallagan, Threlfallia?

Linda

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
I think I'm going crazy in my old age!!! Elsie was only 2 in 1911 and so she was born after the marriage. She is registered accordingly as Elsie Robinson (maiden name of mother Galligan).

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Your best bet, Threlfallia, is the marriage certificate of John Rutter and Elizabeth Ellen. With a bit of luck her mother might have revealed the father's name and it may be on the certificate. I somehow don't think it was Alfred Robinson.
On the other hand, it's not always so clear cut. My grandmother's father died early and she later had a stepfather. She put his name down on her marriage certificate although he had not even arrived in Wigan at the time of her birth. So Alfred may be down as the father. Difficult, difficult...

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
I presume the Conway lot are out!! Red herring!

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
Apologies for going on the wrong track at first with the variant spellings of Gallagan so the Conway family is not correct for Elizabeth Ellen.Perhaps they are related?

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
It looks like Maggie Gallighan (sic) is a 17-year old servant in 1901 in the house of Robert Wainwright in Kendal Street near Gidlow Lane and Frog Lane. They live next door to the Walmoughs. Now I don't want to accuse either of these gentlemen, but do the names say anything to you, Threlfallia? Otherwise glance around at the names of the neighbours. Usually partners did not live far away. Maggie is on page 30 of district 34, Wigan 1901. But 1901 might be too early.

Good night for now!

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
Baptism: 3 Nov 1912 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Elsie Robinson - [Child] of Thomas Robinson & Maggie
Born: 6 Sep 1912
Abode: 1 Oak St.
Occupation: Stoker

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
Name Nellie Robinson
Age in 1911 6
Estimated Birth Year abt 1905
Relation to Head Daughter
Gender Female
Birth Place Frog Cane Wigan, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Wigan
Search Photos Wigan, Lancashire, England
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Street Address 6 Fosters Building Wigan
Marital Status Single
Registration district Wigan
Registration District Number 458
Sub-registration district Wigan
ED, institution, or vessel 27
Piece 22999
Household Members
Name Age
Alfred Robinson 24
Margaret Robinson 27
Nellie Robinson 6
Elsie Robinson 2

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
think you have cracked it there just found elsie on the 1939 register

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
I'm fairly certain, LEP, that I know who Nellie's real, biological father was, on my OH's side - the youngish man concerned left the area, going to live with others of his family, where he married and had other children, but we've spent ages over the last few years trying to find this "Nellie" who had "had a good job as a demonstrator, was very stylish, and married a John Rutter".
As you know, it seemed to be compulsory to be called "John" if your surname was Rutter, in Wigan area, and I knew that this may not help me find Nellie unless I knew her maiden surname.
When the 1939 register came out I listed all the likely females, within 5 years either way of the age I'd been told she'd be, with husbands called John rutter, and found the perfect fit.
Then started the real fun of trying to discover her maiden name, and hence the poor unfortunate girl who was her Mum.All I had gained was her birthdate and his, as in my early post.
I'd struggled on for ages, more or less single-handed, unable to ask you experts because for some reason I simply could neither log on to this site since last year, nor could I re-register under another name. My E-mails to the Admin simply went unanswered until last week, when I made what what I felt would be a final effort at contact before giving up totally brought a helpful response from "Ron" - who wonderfully fixed it for me to slip back on here.
LEP, so good to hear from you again, thanks for your help, and so sorry you've not been well. Mygriffiths, you've been wonderful - again!(Interesting that there seem to be some links, my OH has "Griffiths" from Wigan after they left Shropshire, in his background.) Winnie, thank you so much for your help and efforts, I really do feel quite overawed by you all - I've only once passed through Wigan, to my knowledge, myself, and keep having to look at an old map I've cobbled up, to keep me understanding where is where.
So another bit of a family story seems more or less to have sorted itself out. Wonderful.
(Honestly, my side were all so straightforward - dare I say "boring", that OH's ancestors have really kept me working hard to find them!)
Off to bed now, probably dream about wandering miners and their wandering ........

Posted by: peebee (249)  Report abuse
Michael Rutter is still racing , or he was until a few months ago , one of the best wet weather riders there has ever been.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
IF your Griffiths settled in Poolstock area after several moves from Llanymynach in Shropshire then we may have more links.

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Threlfallia,

I'm glad the case is solved to your satisfaction. Now you can work on the links you have with mygriffiths !!!

Hope you and the fellow researchers on this thread have a good day!

Linda

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Thanks Linda.I'm always working on this side, as I said, they're a complex lot, and not always telling the truth, we've found. Never met any of them in "real life" so it's hard to check things out - and you know I do like to check things out - "It'll do - won't do!"
Actually the only Margaret G I've found marrying a Mr Robinson, giving her father's name as John Galligan, seems to be in Ireland in all censuses .... perhaps we've got a few more fairytales flying round?Margaret did however, marry her Albert on 19th Feb 1908 in All Saints Wigan
And I still can't find a real link between Margaret / Mary Ellen / Elizabeth Ellen, to fit them all into the same family. The "Elizabeth" may be a link to another family member - either her real father's mother, who was Elizabeth, or the Elizabeth who was a witness at Margaret's marriage?
Still some way to go, I suspect.
It's probably a good thing Nellie & John Rutter never had children, otherwise there might be others wandering round looking dazed, too!
This compulsion to tidy up loose ends.....

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
By the way, LEP1950 and mygriffiths, is there any method I can send you - privately - the further details of Elizabeth Ellen's father? Just so that you both know the full tale. I'm loath to put it out publicly, as there are some family around still.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
this is a list of children of Patrick Gallagan and Bridget Cain from Lancashire BMD

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1876
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GILLIGHAN Mary Ellen CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/116/316
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1878
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLIGHAN John CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/124/291
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1880
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLAGHAN Rose Ann CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/135/346
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1883
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLIGHAN Margaret CANE Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/146/376
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1886
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLIGHAN Ellen CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/157/268
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1888
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLIGHAN Edward CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/166/300
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1891
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLAGHAN James CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/181/208
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1894
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLIGAN Catherine CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/192/494
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1899
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLAGHAN Elizabeth CAIN Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/216/226

Mary Ellen was the widow who married John Patrick Hoolin in 1901



Mother Bridget seems to have remarried to a Monaghan and she and the son Edward with some Hoolins are buried together
Surname Forename Age Place of Death Date Year Notes Grave Cremation Religion
Galligan
Galligan Edward 24 yrs 3 Parr's Ct. Darlington St 12-Jul 1912 I 594 R C
Hoolin
Hoolin Patrick 39 yrs 6 Jockey Terrace 01-Dec 1911 I 594 R C
Hoolin Ernest 19 Yrs Field St >>> 13-Jul 1925 ..Billinge Rd Sanitor'm I 594 R C
Hoolin Mary Ellen 49 Yrs Field St 18-Mar 1927 .. I 594 R C
Hoolin Mary 2 mo Infirmary 11-Dec 1937 [ 10, Moorfield St. ] I 594 R C
Monaghan
Monaghan Bridget 61 yrs 2 Foster's Bdngs, Frog Ln. 23-May 1918 I 594 R C


The 1891 census has them as Callagan


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1875
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
GALLIGAN Patrick CAIN Bridget Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/41/90



I think you can ask Ron(admin) to pass on emails to myself and LEP 50

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
oh could you pass an email to me to please

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
My griffiths,

You are always one step ahead!!! I had just completed that list! I wanted to pass it on with the info that the 1891 census gives the name as Callagan. There is also a Margaret Rose Callaghan born in Bootle in 1901, but I don't know whether this is another family.

I have seen Margaret's marriage cetificate on ancestry. Her father's name is given as John. It's strange, but he may have been called John Patrick. Or was the name of Bridget's second husband John?

Patrick was born in Cavan, Ireland. Bridget, it seems, in Wigan.

Linda

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Yes, I've seen the name of John on Margaret's marriage certificate, as I mentioned on an earlier post - that was part of what had put me into a puzzle trying to link the Margaret and the Mary Ellen!
Think I've still a way to go tracing Nellie's family. Every time I think I get somewhere, with any dead end, I seem to wash up on the Irish sea!
I'll try to contact Ron again for you to get Nellie's father.

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Patrick Gallagan died at 4 James Street (addrss in 1891 census) on March 15th 1895 and is buried anonymously in grave D623*. So he was long dead when Elizabeth was born in 1899.

L.

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Marriage of Barnett Monaghan to Bridget Gallaghan in 1900.

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
I have just tried to find out whether any of the other siblings were married at All Saints, Wigan to check the father on those entries, but they all seem to have had Catholic marriages (possibly registry office), but I suppose Margaret was in a bit of a pickle with one illegitimate child already. Anyway, no more information about the father through this line of enquiry.

I would love to know the full story, Threlfallia. If the message doesn't work through Ron, you can always get in touch through ancestry. They don't post the messages on there. Member: Linpa_1

Linda

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
Name John P Hoolin
Age in 1911 39
Estimated Birth Year abt 1872
Relation to Head Head
Gender Male
Birth Place Wigan, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Wigan
Search Photos Wigan, Lancashire, England
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Street Address 6 Ivy Street Spring Gardens Wigan Lancashire
Marital Status Married
Occupation Cool Miner (hewer)
Registration district Wigan
Registration District Number 458
Sub-registration district Wigan
ED, institution, or vessel 42
Piece 23014
Household Members
Name Age
John P Hoolin 39
Mary Ellen Hoolin 36
Mary Ellen Ryon 12
Janes Hoolin 8
Earnest Hoolin 5
John Hoolin 3
Stanley Hoolin 1

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
Some mismatch with Elizabeth in here one age 11 in 1901 who married in 1910 and drowned aged 48 and one born 1899?

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
There were two witneses on Margaret's marriage certificate - Edward Galligan and Lizzie Galligan. Well, this Lizzie couldn't have been her half-sister born in 1899 as she would have only been 10 or 11 years old and much too young.
So there must have been another one - I suspected a cousin - but perhaps a sister-in-law. Did her brother John survive? I'll browse around a bit.

Linda

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
1911

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Bridget Monaghan Head Widow Male 53 1858 Clare Ennistymon Rover Cotton Mill Transcription
Edward Gallaghan Son Single Male 23 1888 Lancs Wigan Coal Miners Filler Below Ground
9 children 6 still living 3 died has been crossed out



No Catherine or Elizabeth

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
The older Elizabeth Galligan, born in 1890, married Seth Mottler at All Saints on October 22nd 1910. Address at the time was 6 Ivy Street and her father's name was Charles. She seems to have died in Ince in 1938 aged 48.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
Yes she drowned in the canal and on 1901 census she is listed as niece but all of Mary Ellen's siblings are younger than her and she is only 25.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
She is part of this family parents Charles and Maria
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1887
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLAGHAN Mary Ellen RILEY Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/164/467
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1890
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLIGHAN Elizabeth RILEY Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/176/271
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1892
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLIGAN Rose Ann REILLY Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/183/439
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
GALLAGHAN Bernard RILEY Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/190/297

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
It is so funny that you are always doing what I am researching. Just got the list of children of Charles and Maria Riley/Reilly and the names seem to indicate a connection between Charles and Patrick. I suspect that they were brothers, but I can't find any trace of them in the 1871 census for Wigan. I suspect they came shortly before 1875, when Patrick married Bridget.

Linda

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
I get your problem now, mygriffiths. Mary Ellen took in her COUSIN Elizabeth after the death of her mother MARIA RILEY in 1898. But Elizabeth was much younger than Mary Ellen and she described her as niece on the census. This was not at all unusual. I have several cases of it in my research. It's funny she didn't call her "daughter". My own mother was more than twenty years younger than her eldest sister, who practically raised her. This sister had two sons who were older than my mother and I always called them "uncle". In fact, I still do as one is still alive. Although they were really my cousins, I have always regarded them as "uncle" and their wives as "auntie".

I don't think that should worry you!

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
Yes I notice the two younger children Roseanna and Bernard also died in the 1890s and the eldest Mary Ellen is in 1911 the servant at the Colliers Arms just a few yards away.Also probably the Mary Ellen who married Edward Conway.

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
Surname Forename Age Place of Death Date Year Notes Grave Cremation Religion
Motler
Motler Violet 69 yrs Billinge Hospital 22-Oct 1990 83 Grant Rd, Hawkley Hall I 301 R C
Mottler
Mottler Violet 20 mo Wigan Infirmary 28-Sep 1914 I 301 R C
Mottler James 9 Mths Prescott St >>> 22-Dec 1924 Infirmary I 301 R C
Mottler Elizabeth 48 yrs drowned in canal - Ince 19-Feb 1938 [ 78, Prescott St. ] I 301 R C
Mottler Seth 59 Yrs Prescott St 14-Mar 1947 I 301 R C

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
cant find a brother charles as a brother to patrick

Posted by: LEP1950 (741) Report abuse
Winnie,

They weren't living together in 1881 and I can't find them in 1871. They were born in Ireland and I suspect they came to Wigan shortly before 1875 when Patrick married. Charles married later. Of course, they may have been cousins not brothers but the name choice of the daughters of both of them is interesting.

We know that Patrick was born in Cavan. Last night I noticed a baptism in Bellananagh, Cavan of a Catherine Gallighan on 18/12/1866. The father's name was Patrick Gallighan and the mother's name was Anne Kane. I just wondered whether they could possibly have been the parents of Patrick (and Charles). I found the maiden name of the mother interesting. You rmember that the maiden name of Patrick's wife Bridget was CAIN. Perhaps the Gallighans came over to Wigan to be with Cain (Kane) relatives and two of them married. Speculation, of course, but it might be worth trying to follow up.

Linda

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
Name Charles Galligan
Registration Year 1886
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration district Wigan
Parishes for this Registration District Wigan
Inferred County Lancashire
Volume 8c
Page 140
Household Members
Name Age
John Dempsey
Charles Galligan
Catherine Hoy
Maria Reilly

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
Name: Charles Galligan
Death Age: 68
Birth Date: abt 1860
Registration Date: Jun 1928
Registration district: Wigan
Inferred County: Lancashire

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
Name: Charles Callagan
Gender: Male
Age: 31
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1860
Spouse: Maria Callagan
Child: Mary E Callagan
Elizabeth Callagan
Birth Place: Ireland
Civil Parish: Wigan
Residence Place: Wigan, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Sub registration district: Wigan
ED, Institution or Vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3052
Folio: 127
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Callagan 31
Maria Callagan 29
Mary E Callagan 3
Elizabeth Callagan 8/12
Michael Reilly 22
John Kegan 21

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
Good finds there Winnie.I wonder if Dempsey is related to the people at the Collier's Arms when Mary Ellen was a servant in 1911.

Posted by: winnie (1145)   Report abuse
there is a John Dempsey on the 1911 censers with her but hes too young so maybe his father who is deceased in 1911

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
My goodness, you lot! I've been out until now, and I come back to find all this! I'll have to start drawing out one of my famous charts to try to sort all this mob out! I'm astounded....truly overcome.
I'll have to settle this by getting out Elizabeth Ellen's birth cert, ensure she really is daughter of Margaret, before we all go too far.
You're a wonderful research team...Thank you again. Linda: I'll be in touch.

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
MyGriffiths, I've managed to give information to Lep, but not sure how to contact you - you've been so helpful. If I contact "Ron", what do I ask him to do? It'd be a bit complex to pass a message on in detail.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
I hope you can ask Ron to give you my email,which I would give permission for or ask him to forward your email to me.

Posted by: mygriffiths (1115) Report abuse
I received an email from Ancestry today with your message ,Thank you.I did not renew with Ancestry this year as I have tried find my past for a change.

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Just glad I've been able to give you the rest of the story. I've not had "Find my past" myself - a friend had it and let me have a browse, but I've stuck with "Ancestry", it seems that it fits my mob better, on the whole. Again, thank you for your kind help - so glad I hit on the right person.

Posted by: momac (9315)  Report abuse
Hello Threlfalia,I've just spoke with Owd Dave and he said that Nellie
worked for him Asda until her eighties..she must have been strong to work
until that age.

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
There were quite a few "Nellie Rutter"s turned up in the course of hunting doiwn this one .... I'm not sure that this lady would have been working at Asda in later life.... what decade would this be, please? thank you for helping out, please let me know if you have further information.She may, or may not have been "our Nellie", as it stands.
-But I suppose if you survived after a rather unpromising start, you'd have to be pretty strong.

Posted by: dja (62) Report abuse
It was the right Nelly Rutter who was a demonstrator at Asda I used to drop her off at that address in Beech Hill,she never had a good word to say about John.

Posted by: threlfallia (176) Report abuse
Thank you very much - I never knew that, dja. She was related to my OH's side, and was a bit of a mystery to most of the family, until I started digging, and sought help on here. Quite fascinating, and thank you very much. It all helps to fill out the picture of a person who is becoming more "real" to me now.

 
 
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