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Worth a shot
Started by: paddy2t10 (468) Report abuse

My ancestor died in 1914 at Elizabeth Street in Ince. She was buried 02/09/1914 at CofE, B487 at Ince-in-Makerfield Cemetery. In this plot is her second husband Daniel George Osborne, her son and his wife John and Alice Wood and other various burials. She married Daniel George Osborne in 1874 after the death of her first husband Roger Wood in 1872.
Her addresses are below:
1881 91 Manchester Road, Ince-in-Makerfield
1891 22 Keble Street, Ince-in-Makerfield
1901 22 Keble Street, Ince-in-Makerfield

I cannot seem to find her on the 1911 census even though she must be there somewhere. Could someone help me find her please in 1911? Thanks in advance!!

I have tried different name variants and even searching addresses and still can't find her.

Posted by: pieman (47) Report abuse
Hi Paddy2t10
I have had the same problem with 1911 myself and I don't know if it's because it's the first census that someone from the household had to fill in. If they had children try searching for them as she may be lodging with someone. Also try searching with both her married surnames or her original maiden name. Good luck.

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
what was her name

Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse
Hi Paddy,

I've been following up several ideas, but my computer is now playing up. You might like to see if you can find Elizabeth Street in the 1911 census. Elizabeth Marsden/Wood/Osborne died there in 1914, and daughter-in-law Alice seems to have died from 3, Elizabeth Street in 1933. Perhaps Elizabeth was already there in 1911. Hope to write some more tonight, but it is taking my computer ages at the moment to open up a single page.


Posted by: paddy2t10 (468) Report abuse
Thanks Pieman, I'll try that and see if I find anything!

Winnie, she was born Elizabeth Marsden then married Roger Wood and then Daniel George Osborne.

Thanks for your help, Linda. I found Elizabeth Street but there are only a handful of houses and none of the residents relate to Elizabeth as far as I can tell.

Posted by: paddy2t10 (468) Report abuse
Elizabeth Street, Belle Green Lane, Ince-in-Makerfield

No. 1
Robert Molloy 23
Elizabeth Ann " 23
Agnes " 1

No. 3
Lydia Harding 33
Emily " 13
Margaret " 12
George " 9
John " 6
Hilda " 2

No. 5
William Croston 35
Mary " 31
George " 10
Elsey " 7
Pheoby " 5
Percy " 2
Johnny Odonald 24

No. 7
Charles Nelson 56
Martha " 60
Charles " 19

I thought maybe she still lived at 22 Keble Street and died at Elizabeth Street, not necessarily having lived there. But then she isn't there either.

Keble Street, Ince-in-Makerfield

No. 22
Richard Smith 32
Margaret " 32
William " 3
Elizabeth Ann " 2
Viza " 29
Martha " 67

Posted by: paddy2t10 (468) Report abuse
As far as I know, Elizabeth and Roger had only 3 children:

John Wood, b. 02/09/1852, ba. 17/09/1852 at All Saints, Wigan
m. 01/09/1879 at Christ Church, Ince-in-Makerfield to Alice Fairclough (in 1911 they lived at 11 Ashton Street, Ince-in-Makerfield)

Charlotte Wood, b. 11/06/1854, ba. 26/06/1854 at All Saints, Wigan
m. 07/02/1874 at Christ Church, Ince-in-Makerfield to Samuel Penman

Ellen Wood
b. 06/04/1856, ba. 14/07/1856 at All Saints, Wigan (presumably died between birth and 1861 - she isn't with family in 1861, 71, 81)

Posted by: mygriffiths (1120) Report abuse
Burial: 1 Jan 1857 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ellen Wood -
Age: 9 months
Abode: Whelley
Notes: F 18/-
Buried by: Saml. Doria Offg. Ministr.
Register: Burials 1841 - 1908, Page 136, Entry 1086
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Posted by: paddy2t10 (468) Report abuse
Thanks Mygriffiths!!

Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse
I've been trying to establish whether Elizabeth was living with one of her children, grandchildren or former lodgers in 1911. I have the same children and marriages as you. I'm also not quite sure what happened to Ellen, but I have noted down that she may have married someone called Robinson.

One of Elizabeth's lodgers in Keble Street in 1901 was a certain John James Fleming. He married Elizabeth, the daughter of John and Alice Wood, in 1903 from Keble Street. Presumably he was still living with the widow Elizabeth Osborne. It seems that the couple lived with Elizabeth for a while as their two eldest children were both baptised from this address in 1905 and 1906. Both these children died and are buried in grave B487 in Ince. The eldest was Robert and the second child Annie. Annie died in Keble Street in 1907. Her father's name seems to be wrong on wiganworld. The baptism register and death register give John James and not James Thomas as the father. When the third child Doris was born in 1909, the address in the baptism registers is 11 Canal Terrace. Whether Elizabeth Osborne was with them still at this stage, I don't know, but I really hoped to find them in 1911 together. Alas, this was not the case. John and Elizabeth Fleming were lodging with a widowed publican called Ellen Robinson and her family in Belle Green Lane.
This must have been a relative of John James as her maiden name, judging by the children with her, was Fleming.
Have to go to the supermarkt! Will look at those names from Elizabeth Street afterwards.The burial registers say that Elizabeth died from Elizabeth Street in 1914.


Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse
Seems mygriffiths has the answer to child Ellen!

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
1925 ELIZABETH STREET - (Higher Ince.)
1 Pulford Hugh, pump attendant
3 Fleming John J., steelworker
5 Croston William, farm-hand
7 Hooton Henry, st

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
Name Elizabeth Fleming
Age in 1911 27
Estimated Birth Year abt 1884
Relation to Head Boarder
Gender Female
Birth Place Lancashire, England
Civil parish Ince in Makerfield
Search Photos Ince in Makerfield, Lancashire, England
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Street Address 33 Belle Green Lane Ince Wigan
Marital Status Married
Registration district Wigan
Registration District Number 458
Sub-registration district Hindley
ED, institution, or vessel 36
Piece 23051
Household Members
Name Age
Ellen A Robinson 41
Charles H Robinson 7
Edith E Robinson 5
May Berry 11
John J Fleming 28
Elizabeth Fleming 27
Doris Fleming 2

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
Ellen A is John James Sister

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
flemming children buried with their grandparent

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
Fleming Robert 7 mo Keble St. 04-Jul 1905 son of John B 487 C of E
Fleming Annie 14 mo Keble St. 24-Jul 1907 dau of James Thos. B 487 C of E
France Margaret 9 yrs Ince Common, Ince 21-Feb 1869 dau of William B 487 * C of E
Gibbins Samuel 52 yrs Ince 19-Apr 1866 Labourer B 487 * C of E
Osborne Daniel George 71 yrs Keble St. 17-Oct 1901 Under-looker B 487 C of E
Osborne Elizabeth 80 yrs Elizabeth St. 02-Sep 1914 Widow B 487 C of E
Schofield Edwin 10 dys Ince Green Lane, Ince 23-Feb 1869 son of Isaac B 487 * C of E
Tickle James 6 mo Manchester Rd.Ince 23-Feb 1869 son of Henry B 487 * C of E
Wood John 56 yrs Ashton St. 29-Jul 1911 Clogger B 487 C of E
Wood Alice 74 yrs 3, Elizabeth St. 23-Sep 1933 B 487 C of E

Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse

So, she's his sister. I hadn't looked. But Winnie, what do you mean with 1925 Elizabeth Street?? I know that Elizabeth Street later became Belle Green Lane, but do you mean that John James Fleming was living there in 1925? At no. 3? This would be really interesting. Perhaps they were there in 1914 as well and Elizabeth Osborne was with them when she died, and Elizabeth Fleming took her mother Alice Wood in as well before she died.


Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse

John James Fleming and wife Elizabeth had two children after the First World War and they lived at No. 3 Elizabeth Street:

Baptism: 3 Apr 1919 Christ Church, Ince, Lancs.
John Fleming - [Child] of John James Fleming & Elizabeth
Born: 12 Mar 1919
Abode: 3 Elizabeth St
Occupation: Steel Worker
Baptised by: O. E Hill
Register: Baptisms 1915 - 1926, Page 102, Entry 814
Source: Original Register at Wigan Archives

Baptism: 30 Jun 1921 Christ Church, Ince, Lancs.
Norman Flemming - [Child] of John James Flemming & Elizabeth
Born: 3 Jun 1921
Abode: 3 Elizabeth Street
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: F. A. Sadler
Register: Baptisms 1915 - 1926, Page 170, Entry 1359
Source: Original Register at Wigan Archives

That's definitely where Elizabeth Osborne was at the time of her death!

Good work, everyone!!!


Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse
I think I got a bit overexcited! We're supposed to be finding Elizabth Osborne in 1911! Hospital???

By the way, who is Herbert Wood, listed as son of Roger(Parfen in the transcription) and Elizabeth Wood in 1871? I don't immediately see a birth or baptism. Probably he was a relative, but what was his real surname? Could Elizabeth Osborne be with him in 1911?


Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
there is a Wood family tree on ancestry that have some photos of this family from a wedding in the 50s

Posted by: paddy2t10 (468) Report abuse
Thank you Linda and Winnie!!

Linda, that has flummoxed me too. I've not been able to find a Herbert Wood birth but he does show up on the census. I wondered if he was a cousin.

Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse
The family lived in Elizabeth Street for a long time. John James Fleming died there in 1937 aged 55. Elizabeth's brother Herbert Wood died there in 1948 aged 51. And Elizabeth Fleming died in Elizabeth Street in 1958 aged 74.

I looked at the photos on ancestry, Winnie, but there's a bit of confusion in the data. It was Elizabeth Wood's sister Mary who married Christopher Myers in 1909. He was living at 11, Canal Bank, which is probably the same as 11 Canal Terrace. This was the baptism address of Doris, the daughter of John James Fleming and Elizabeth Wood, in 1909. Interestingly, Christopher and Mary called their first son John James.

Marriage: 13 Nov 1909 Christ Church, Ince, Lancs.
Christopher Myers - 22, Miner, Bachelor, 11 Canal Bank
Mary Wood - 23, Spinster, 11 Ashton St
Groom's Father: James Myers, Deceased, Brass Moulder
Bride's Father: John Wood, Miner
Witness: Edward Yates; Alice Wood
Married by Banns by: Robert Whitehead
Register: Marriages 1906 - 1912, Page 138, Entry 275
Source: Original Register at Wigan Archives

They were in Woodhouse Lane in 1911 and Elizabeth Osborne is not with them!


PS Alice Wood and Edward Yates, the witnesses, married themselves a year later. They are in Ashton Street in 1911, also without grandmother Elizabeth Osborne.

Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse
Elizabeth Osborne's son John Wood and his wife Alice had two sons with them in 1911 (John and Herbert) and report that six children were still alive (above two + Roger, Elizabeth, Mary and Alice). I have traced all these and Elizabeth Osborne is with none of these grandchildren in the 1911 census. Nor is she with John and Alice themselves.

I tried daughter Charlotte and her husband Samuel Penman. It looks like they had no children who survived. I can follow them up to 1901, when they are at different addresses as Samuel is visiting family. I cannot find either of them in 1911 nor can I find a death for Charlotte. I think I have found Samuel's death, but I haven't doublechecked it.He is not buried with Charlotte. Mind you, when you consider that they were in the 1881 census as Pumar, goodness knows what name was noted down for them. I don't think they would be literate being born in the 1850s.


Posted by: paddy2t10 (468) Report abuse
Linda, that's great. I can add all that to the research! Really bizarre that Elizabeth is untraceable. God knows where she was! Thanks again!

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
i have Charlotte dying before 1909 although i have no proof but found another marriage For Samuel in the censers he is down as a Clogger and on this marriage he is also a clogger and a widow Name Samuel Penman
Gender Male
Age 50
Record Type Marriage
Birth Year abt 1859
Marriage Date 9 Jun 1909
Marriage Place Wigan, All Saints, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears Wigan
Search Photos Wigan, All Saints, Lancashire, England
Father John Penman
Spouse Elizabeth Boardman
Household Members
Name Age
Samuel Penman
John Penman
Elizabeth Boardman although his birth is slightly different

Posted by: winnie (1163)   Report abuse
Name Samuel Penman
Death Age 77
Birth Date abt 1853
Registration Date Mar 1930
Registration district Wigan
Inferred County Lancashire
Volume 8c
Page 156
Household Members
Name Age
Samuel Penman

Posted by: LEP1950 (745) Report abuse
Samuel was a clogger. His father's name was John Penman. Both fit. There were two births of a Samuel Penman in Wigan in 1852 and 1853. The first Samuel died aged one. No Samuel was born around 1859. So, it is most likely that the widower was Charlotte Wood's husband. So Charlotte must have died between 1901 and 1909. But I can find nothing. Or Charlotte just left him and took on another name.Who knows?



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