Griffiths Family

I am trying to find any information about a John Griffiths who was born in 1853. He had a sister named Mary Catherine Griffiths who was born in 1856. Their father, had married a woman named Elizabeth Hughes Lloyd in 1852 and had these 2 children with her before he passed away in 1859. It seems they, ( the children) just fell off the map. Any info on this family would be greatly appreciated~ Thank you

Hi,

John was born before Elizabeth's marriage and is registered in the birth registers of 1852 as John Lloyd.
Elizabeth was widowed when she married John Griffiths and she seems to have had at least one child with her first husband. This child William Lloyd is with her in the 1871 census aged 27. Also with Elizabeth Griffiths is her 18 year old son John Lloyd, who was born in Ince. The address is Low Green Road, Hindley. Elizabeth is listed as married and William as "wid". I don't know whether the enumerator got things the wrong way round, but I do know that sometimes widows were still listed as married.
I am practically certain that this is "your" John. I couldn't find him at first glance in 1861, but I know that there are gaps in this census.

Linda

P.S. We know from the marriage registration that Elizabeth was born around 1815/16. She seems to have died at Warrington Road, Ince and was buried as a widow at Ince cemetery on 28th April 1872.

The scan of the baptism registers of All Saints for 1856 show that Mary's name was not noted as Mary Catherine but Mary Catterall. Which is correct and whether it is of any help, I don't know.

Hi again,


A Mary Catherine Griffiths died in the Hindley registration district in 1865 aged 9, which corresponds exactly and could explain why she is not with mother Elizabeth and brother John in 1871, but Ince cemetery records say she was a non-conformist and the daughter of Benjamin (??). But Lancashire BMD shows only one Mary Catherine born between 1855 and 1858, and the maiden name of the mother was Hughes. Who is this Benjamin??
Linda

A John Lloyd died in the registration district of Hindley in 1872 aged 19. I fear this could have been John Lloyd/Griffiths.

Linda

Don't know whether this interests you, but I think half-brother William Lloyd married Hannah Seddon in 1867. She died aged 19 in 1869, as did their child Martha Hannah, who was born that same year. So William was a widower in 1871.
L.

Here is the burial of John Lloyd. The address given in the register is the same as the address in the 1871 census:

Name: John Lloyd
Birth Year: abt 1853
Death Age: 19
Burial Date: 31 Mar 1872
Burial Parish: Hindley, All Saints, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Hindley


Haven't found Mary Catherine's burial yet. I'm a bit confused about her yet.

Linda

Marriage of John Griffiths and Elizabeth Hughes in December 1852:
Marriage: 23 Dec 1852 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Griffiths - (X), 33 Collier Bachelor of Scholes
Elizabeth Lloyd - (X), 36 Widow of Scholes
Groom's Father: William Griffiths, Deceased
Bride's Father: Hugh Hughes, Deceased
Witness: Joseph Turner; Charles Carter
Register: Marriages 1851 - 1853, Page 227, Entry 453
Source: LDS Film 1885696

Probably John Lloyd was born shortly before. I have to date only found the birth registration and not the baptism:

Name: John Lloyd
Registration Year: 1852
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Wigan
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 56

Mary, on the other hand, was christened at All Saints, Wigan:

Baptism: 28 Apr 1856 All Saints, Wigan, Lancs.
Mary Catterall Griffiths - [Child] of John Griffiths & Elizabeth
Born: 30 Mar 1856
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: W T Whitehead Curate
Register: Baptisms 1854 - 1857, Page 254, Entry 2029
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives


Perhaps Elizabeth Griffiths was living with someone called Benjamin between 1859 and 1865 and he was put down in the register as the father of Mary Catherine/Catterall Griffiths. I can't find any evidence that Elizabeth married again.

Linda

Perhaps getting closer to solving the "Benjamin"-problem. In the 1871 census Elizabeth Griffiths was supposedly born in Flint in Ireland (!). There seems to have been something wrong with somebody's geography as Flint, as far as I know is North Wales. Anyway, Elizabeth Lloyd is already widowed in 1851, comes from Flint, is the correct age, lives in Scholes (right area) and is a charwoman/pauper. She has three children:
Benjamin (10)
William (8)
Ann (4).
Benjamin and William were born in Flint and Ann in Manchester. Benjamin married Elizabeth Hague in 1862 at St Catherine's and his father's name is listed as Peter.
Benjamin and Elizabeth had a lot of children. It's possible that Mary Catherine lived with them and that he was the one who registered her death. One of the children - Levi - (they all had very biblical names) - died at Warrington Road, Ince in April 1872, a week after Elizabeth Griffiths from the same address. Levi and Elizabeth are in the same communal grave at Ince cemetery. John Lloyd had died shortly before. I wonder whether there was some kind of epidemic in 1872.

PS. Peter Lloyd and Elizabeth Hughes married at Holywell, St James in Mold, Flintshire in 1839.


Still have to find Mary Catherine's burial!!!


L.

Benjamin Lloyd, was William Lloyd's brother and Elizabeth's son from her first Husband Peter Lloyd, who died in 1847... It is Benjamin Lloyd, who is my great grandfather. I then have her marrying John Griffiths and he passed in 1859. If Mary Catherine passed away, I will mark that down. John would have had to been from Griffiths though, because he was born after Peter Lloyd had died and Elizabeth had remarried. Why would they have him going under the name of Lloyd?

Oops.... Elizabeth's maiden name was Hughes before she married Peter Lloyd!

In the 1871 Census, Benjamin is living with his wife, Elizabeth Hague Lloyd. My great grandparents. Tragic really how many children of theirs passed at such a young age. I don't believe that Elizabeth Hughes Lloyd Griffiths married after John passed away.
I always know that you, here on WW are such a great help. I really appreciate you taking your time to find this out. Thanks again~ What a help you have been.

Hi Agertsch,
I tend to get a bit obsessed when I have a "case"! So no ironing done today!!! So you are descended from Benjamin. I think Elizabeth Griffiths was living with this son after the death of John Lloyd/Griffiths as she dies from the same address as Levi and is in the same grave. I'm sure that John Lloyd was John Griffiths' son, but I think he arrived shortly before Elizabeth and John's marriage, which was on December 23rd 1852 and so was oficially a "Lloyd". I can find no baptism, but I'm wondering now whether he was christened as a non-Conformist. You remember that there was a daughter Ann in the 1851 census, born in Manchester about 1846. Well, I decided to look whether any more children were born there. I found a Robert:

Name: Robert Lloyd
Baptism Date: 4 Oct 1848
Baptism Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Church: Manchester 2nd Primitive Methodist Circuit
Father Name: Peter Lloyd
Mother Name: Elizabeth Lloyd

(Manchester, non-Conformist Births and Baptisms 1758-1912)

Lancashire BMD gives the maiden name of the mother here as Hughes. The sub-district was London Road, and Robert Lloyd died aged 1 in this sub-district in 1849. So there was some kind of connection to Methodism. Mary Catherine was supposedly non-Conformist. So another child died. I fear both children with John Griffiths died in 1865 and 1872 respectively.

Ann Lloyd seems to have survived and married John Eastham, which you probably know.

I'd like to find John's baptism and Mary Catherine's burial, but that's just to wrap it up.


On the other hand, are you interested in going further back? I think Elizabeth's father Hugh Hughes may have married a Mary Griffiths in Mold, Flintshire in 1793. There seems to be a baptism of an "Ismael" to this couple in 1814 at Chester Road Weslyan Methodist, Holywell. But these are just first thoughts. Perhaps I'd better leave it and get some ironing done!

Linda

I am very interested in going back further... I do have Hugh Hughes married to a Mary, but I don't have a last name and I am thinking that it is a second marriage for him. That is not to say I am wrong with which marriage came first, but I hate to keep you from your ironing :D I do not have an "Ismael" on my tree, as of yet. There is an Elizabeth that dies at the same address as Levi? Levi would be her Elizabeth Hughes Lloyd Griffiths) grandson. Levi is Benjamin and Elizabeth Hague son.

Yes, Elizabeth and Levi died from Warrington Road, Ince in 1872 and since they died only a week apart, they are in the same communal grave. That's why I think Elizabeth must have been living with Benjamin in 1872. In 1871 she was still at Low Green until John Lloyd/Griffiths died.

I found Benjamin in the 1841 census for Holywell, Wales - 5 months old and with father Peter, aged 30 (age may have been rounded down) and mother Elizabeth aged 28. Right next door is a Jesse Hughes aged 25 with his wife Jane aged 20, daughter Elizabeth aged 2 and son Jesse aged 9 months. Now Hughes is a very common name in Wales, but perhaps this is Elizabeth's brother. I don't know about the Hugh and Mary marriage. I was just struck by Holywell and the Methodist connection. Obviously more research would be needed. It was just a thought.

L.

Yes, I am just trying hard to put her in the house with Benjamin and his family. I know that Benjamin and his wife were CofE and I'm not sure if that came from Elizabeth Hague side or not. I don't believe Grandpa Great (Benjamin)was really anything. I can't thank you for all that you have opened up, with this line.... I feel as though I should make a trip over just to do your ironing. I was just on the GRO site, and they don't have a death cert. for a Peter Lloyd the year that the family has said he died... so I will continue on with this line. I just feel so bad to have found out that John and Mary Catherine both never grew up. Thanks again, Linda, You have been a world of help~

Well, you'd have to come to Berlin to do the ironing!!
Seriously, I enjoy doing this sort of thing. I had wondered about Peter Lloyd's death as Robert, apparently the child of Peter Lloyd and Elizabeth Hughes, was baptised in October 1848 and it looks like Peter was still alive and in Manchester then. But in the civil registrations of deaths there are only two possible deaths in Lancashire, one in 1849 in Liverpool and one in 1850 in West Derby. Neither is very convincing. But perhaps Elizabeth never registered his death. I'll browse around again tonight.

Linda

Burial: 16 Sep 1849 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Peter Loyde -
Abode: Scholes
Notes: [Age not recorded]
Buried by: A. Coates Curate
Register: Burials 1848 - 1853, Page 110, Entry 877
Source: LDS Film 1885702
You are doing a good job here Linda.

As Robert also died in Wigan in 1849 I think the above Peter must be the father despite the spelling.
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1849
Surname Forename(s) Age or Date of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
LLOYD Robert 1 Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/23/427

That's great, mygriffiths. I have no doubt that that is Peter. So the original search was for John and Mary Catherine Griffiths and one ends up finding out all kinds of other things!!
By the way, is the John Griffiths Elizabeth Hughes Lloyd married in any way related to you?

Linda

No Linda this family is not related.Llanymynach in Shropshire was the home of my connection in 1800.
I also have unrelated Hughes from Flintshire.
You can find information mainly related to my great grandmother's uncle Henry Hughes on the internet.
two examples if you are interested :-
Pioneer Medicine and Apothecary - Mendon, Utah
www.mendonutah.net/history/pioneer_medicine.htm
PDF]the reluctant bride - Welsh Mormon History
welshmormon.byu.edu/Resources/pdf/10647.pdf

Mygriffiths,
I read the page on Henry Hughes and, funnily enough, it isn't the first time I've read about him. I remember reading a long illustrated article once that someone I was corresponding with about something recommended. There was a connection, I think, around 5 corners. No blood relation. I wish I could remember the exact details, but I'll look through some of my stuff later to see if I can find details.
I've downloaded the "reluctant bride", but that's quite long and so I'll save it for a rainy afternoon, although today was a rainy afternoon!

Linda

As you can expect Linda some of the family 'research' is incorrect around the time of Thomas Hughes and Mary Ann Beesby in Hanley.

agertsch/mygriffith,

Does either of you have a subscription to findmypast? Peter Lloyd and Elizabeth Hughes married in Bagillt (Holywell), Flintshire on 4 November 1839. Scans of the marriage register and the banns are supposedly on findmypast (Wales, Flintshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912). I'm not very optimistic, but I wonder if Peter's father's name is in the register.

John Griffiths, by the way, does not seem to be in Wigan in 1851 or 1841. The one married to Mary in Ince in 1851 is still there in 1861. So this can't be the one who married Elizabeth. But there is a bachelor called John Griffith living in Baglitt, Holywell, Flintshire in 1851 with mother Elizabeth and several siblings. His age is moreorless correct as he was supposedly 33 in 1852. Here he is 33 in 1851. I'm trying at the moment to look for other possible candidates. Father's name was William, but he was dead by 1852. It looks like John Griffiths moved to Wigan (Ince) after the 1851 census. I'll post if I find anything more concrete.

Linda

Freddy /

Sorry, I have had to go to work for some reason. According to the family Bible, it said that Peter Lloyd died Dec. 25, 1847 In Holywell, Flint, Flintshire, Wales, but I can find nothing for that date with this name. Is it possible that back then they didn't have to notify anyone about the death or register it with someone? I wonder if he did die 2 years later, in 1849. I got the idea that when Elizabeth and John married that they were in Wigan. I have that they married in 1852 and Elizabeth was in Wigan in the 1851 census. I haven't found the time yet to see if I could possibly find the birth certificate for John Griffiths Jr.(Lloyd) in 1853.

Mygriffith, We learned about your relative in our State History classes. Quite the man if I remember correctly... Surgeon/Dr. at one time?

Going thru some stuff that my cousin had given me that came from my grandfather Lloyd, there is a Memoriam card for a Mary Ann, who passed away Jan. 18, 1900 and is the beloved wife of Robert Lloyd. She was 69 years old when she died which would put her birth at about 1831, so she would have been older than my Robert. The earliest he could have been born was after 1846..... But if he died just prior to his father, Peter, who is this Mary Ann that was married to a Robert Lloyd?
She is buried at St. John's church in Burscough Bridge? ( new place I have not heard of)

In the 1891 census, Mary Ann Lloyd and Robert lived in Ormskirk. Mary Ann was a 61 year old midwife, born in Ormskirk and Robert was 62 (b. 1829/1830), born in Flintshire. Whoever he was, he doesn't seem to have been Peter's son. Possibly he was his much younger brother or a nephew. I am out most of today and cannot do research before this evening.

Do you know when the family bible was filled in? It's unlikely to have been in 1847 when most people couldn't read or write. If it was filled in much later, then people relied on what they remembered or had heard from ancestors. I personally am 99.9% sure that Mygriffiths found Peter Lloyd (Loyde) and that he and baby Robert died in 1849.

Will see what I can dig up later.

Linda

Whoops, have just ound this:

Name: Peter Lloyd
Registration Year: 1847
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Holywell
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Flintshire
Volume: 27
Page: 178


This is confusing. It needs more investigation. Peter Lloyd was not an uncommon name in Flintshire. Will get back to you.

L.

Yes, agertsch, I did read that Henry Hughes acted as a surgeon during the Civil War.I suspect more on a needs must than qualifictions basis.
The Robert Lloyd above worked on the railway and several of his homes were along this line:Lathom ,Hoscar and Burscough Bridge all of which fall in the Ormskirk district.
A family tree relates to this marriage
Marriage: 8 Nov 1847 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Robert Lloyd - (X), full, Labourer, Bachelor, Ormskirk
Mary Gregory - eighteen, Spinster, Ormskirk
Groom's Father: William Lloyd, deceased
Bride's Father: Richard Gregory, Tailor
Witness: Edward Lewis; George Wignall
Married by Banns by: Edwin L.Blenkinsopp Curate
Register: Marriages 1846 - 1853, Page 34, Entry 67
Source: LDS Film 1849665
so a possibility of his being Peter's brother.Robert died in 1903

I looked at the Peter Lloyds in the 1841 census for Flintshire and there were quite a few, also three or four of a similar age to that of Peter. Of course, there would have been comings and goings between 1841 and 1847/49, but I just want to point out that it is a common name in Wales. Lloyds, Hughes, Roberts - they seem to be living in the same house or next to each other a lot of the time.

I don't know how old the Peter was who died in Holywell in 1847. You could, of course, order this death certificate and risk it being of no use. It should give the age and occupation of the deceased even at that time, but it also should give the name of the person who informed of the death. On the other hand, families tended to use the same handful of names. I don't know whether a "Benjamin" or a "William" would definitely refer to your line of the family.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no registration of the death of Peter Loyde/Lloyd in Scholes. Elizabeth should have done this as the children were too young, but she wasn't literate and perhaps did not know. He is only in the burial register of All Saints and no age is recorded, but the area is correct, and there doesn't seem to be another Peter Lloyd around that time in Wigan.

We know that Peter and Elizabeth married in 1839, that Benjamin was born in 1840 and William in 1843/44.All this happened in Flintshire and is documented. The 1851 census, in which Elizabeth is already a widow, shows a daughter aged 5. Ann was born in 1845 in the subdistrict of Deansgate and the maiden name of the mother is recorded as "Hughes" (lancashirebmd). So it is clear that the family was in Manchester in 1845. Then in 1848 a son called Robert was born. Again this is documented by a christening record and the registration with the maiden name Hughes. Peter is recorded as the father in 1848 with no indication that he is deceased. Little Robert dies in Wigan in 1849. The family must then have been in Wigan at this time. It is documented that Elizabeth was a widow by 1851 and in Wigan. It seems to me rather illogical that Peter went back to Flintshire to die in 1847 when his name is registered in Manchester in 1848, where we know that the family was, and in 1849 in Wigan, where little Robert died indicating that the family was in Wigan in 1849. I am sure that mygriffiths has the correct person. I looked to see whether a baby called Peter Lloyd was born/died at this time, but this was not the case.

If I were you, agertsch, I would buy the death certificate from the last quarter of 1847 in Holywell, Flintshire. At the moment, I don't see any other possibility of clarifying the matter. And even this might not be definitive.

Linda

PS Benjamin seems to have signed his name at his marriage. At any rate, it is not followed by a cross.

Just attempted to order Peter Lloyds death certificate but using the info, there are no records found according to GRO.... I will have to do more searching when I get back home from work. You guys have really given me a lot to look into and for that I give you a very hardy Thank You!

Hi agertsch,

It might be easier to order the certificate through www.northwalesbmd.org.uk

I don't know whether you know this website, but I discovered it about two years ago.

Go onto "deaths" and then put in Peter Lloyd, the year 1847 and Flintshire. Two entries will appear as one Peter Lloyd died in the third quarter and one in the fourth quarter of that year. I think it's the second one with the reference MOLD/05/76. The last number refers to the page, I think, and this is the later page. If you click on the entry, it tells you how to order.

Good luck!
Linda

P.S. Unfortunately, you can't order it online, but if you click on the reference number, an application form pops up with instructions how to order it and payment details.

I have looked on the familysearch.org website and found reference to Peter Lloyd.Some matching points and seems to be related through Benjamin and Elizabeth Hague and their daughter Leah who married an Albert Daniel Dawson in Ince in 1893.
Peter Lloyd a twin born 1804. died before 1862 son of Robert Lloyd and Mary Jones.
Married Elizabeth Hughes Daughter of Hugh Hughes and Catherine Jones.

mygriffiths,
I have seen that tree, but I'm not sure how they know that Peter, b. in 1804, is the Peter who married Elizabeth Hughes. The age doesn't correspond at all to the 1841 census. Here Peter was listed as being 30, which may be true, i.e. b. 1811. Of course, he may have been 31-34, but that would mean 1807 at the earliest. I wasn't completely convinced as no documents were shown and that's why I asked whether either of you had a findmypast subscription as the scan of the marriage of Peter and Elizabeth is supposedly on there. I thought we might get the father's name. I'll have to ask Frances.

Linda

I wondered if the tree owner was known to agertsch as it has another death date which cannot match with Peter and they both are descendants of Benjamin.I am sure Frances will check what she can,she has always been very helpful.

mygriffiths, I believe that the tree you are talking about was started by me for my sister,, and it shows that Peter died in 1864 if I am not mistaken.... I have talked to my sister because she has changed a lot of things on this tree. My tree is on Ancestry. The death that my aunt was using for Peter Lloyd, says that he was 53 years old when he died in 1847, which means he would have been born sometime in the late 1790's. Which puts him even older than Elizabeth Hughes, but I do have Copies of Benjamin's, Ann's and William Lloyd's birth certificates, that list the parents as Peter Lloyd and Elizabeth Lloyd, formerly Hughes, as the parents. Would she have been that much younger than him when they married? I went in and changed the date on her family tree.
Benjamin Lloyd did have a daughter who went missing in 1904 named Leah Lloyd Dawson,married to Albert Dawson. We finally found out what happened to her in 2008. Thanks to the book Wicked Wigan and the author of said book. She left 3 children behind that were raised by her sister Florence Lloyd Heaton.

Linda, you were talking about this earlier and this is what I have found out so far. The death of John Lloyd. Elizabeth Lloyd, late Lloyd, formerly Hughes listed the father as John Lloyd on the birth certificate The birth was at Nr. Kirkless Hall@ Ince on the 17 Sept. 1853...... My brain just keeps swirling with this bunch!

Mygriffiths, I have Peter Lloyd's father listed as Robert Lloyd on a marriage certificate that is in this stack of documents... but there have been so many mistakes, we have corrected so far, I wasn't so sure that this one went with this family until Linda started talking about Hugh Hughes, who is the father of Elizabeth Hughes, on this certificate.

Agertsch,

If you know that the Peter who died in 1847 was born in the 1790s, then you may be wasting your money with the certificate. He would be far too old considering his age in 1841, but the informant of the death may be on the certificate. If you have a copy of the marriage certificate of Peter, then we must assume that "Robert" is correct. But just because Peter married Elizabeth in Flint doesn't necessarily mean that he was born there. He could have been born elsewhere in Wales. I'm not yet convinced of 1804.


In the birth registers of Lancashire and also the civil birth registration on ancestry, there is no John Lloyd with a mother called Hughes born in 1853. By that time Elizabeth was married to John Griffiths anyway and so any child would have been a Griffiths regardless of the father. Is it definitely a "3" at the end or could it possibly be a "2"? John Lloyd was registered in the last quarter of 1852, which could mean that his birth was in the second September half as they had a few weeks to register a birth. Elizabeth gave her name and when asked about the father said "John" meaning John Griffiths. She was illiterate and didn't know what was being written down.
I thought Kirkless Hall was a pit. Perhaps mygriffiths can enlighten us here.
I have the two Wicked Wigan books and will look at them again today.
By the way, some people on ancestry have the Peter born in 1804 dying in 1832, but surprisingly marrying Elizabeth Hughes in 1839. So much to that!!

Linda

Kirkless Hall estate mainly in Aspull but extended into Ince and Wigan in 18th century. A pub in New Springs called Kirkless Hall Inn.Estate sold on and eventually Kirkless Hall Coal & Cannel Company was formed.Lots of details on the internet.
I agree that John would officially be a Lloyd born in 1852 even though his father was Griffiths as there were strict rules on this around the 1850s. Elizabeth would have said his father was John but Lloyd would have to be recorded.
1841 census did round down adult ages to the 5 year multiple but this Welsh one had several actual ages inc.Elizabeth at 28.

I'd noticed Elizabeth's age in that census, too, mygriffiths. So if this enumerator was writing down exact ages, then Peter would have been born around 1810/11. Funnily enough there is a baptism of a Peter Lloyd in Mold,Flintshire on November 24th 1811. Again, the scan is supposedly on findmypast. I'll write a PS to Frances!!

Linda

For mygriffiths re. Henry Hughes

I have looked into all my old emails on genesreunited and have found my correspondence about Henry Hughes. Here are my "five corners":

My great-grandmother had a sister called Catherine Atherton. She married a certain Peter Burrows in 1884. Peter, it seems, had an elder brother called William, who was first married to a certain Martha Hughes before leaving her and committing bigamy in Yorkshire. Martha in her turn had lots of children with someone else after William left. Although she claimed to be the wife, she does not seem to have married the father of her children. So, no bigamy here. Anyway, Martha's uncle was Henry Hughes who went to Utah. Small world, isn't it?

Linda

Yes Linda ,Martha was one of my great grandmother's younger sisters they are both buried with their mother.

That really is a coincidence, mygriffiths.

So, Frances has replied and confirmed that Peter Lloyd's father's name was Robert. She also found the baptism of a Peter with a father called Robert and a mother called Mary on January 12th (born January 11th)1811 in Merionethshire, Wales. We know he married in Flint and was there in 1841, but we don't actually know where Peter was born. If the age in the 1841 census is correct, he could possibly be the Peter in this baptism record. There are unfortunately a lot of Robert Lloyd marriages to Marys between 1790 and 1812. So nothing there yet.

Linda

Would there be a reason for him to be baptized at 1 day old... isn't that odd?

No, it's not really odd. Roman Catholics, for example, often had their children baptised at one or two days old, sometimes even on the same day. I don't know whether the mother went with them, though. Probably not. Catholic mothers had to be "churched" before they attended mass again. Sometimes children were christened at home soon after birth if there was a risk that they may not survive.These christenings were then transferred to the church register.
The Peter above is just a possibility. He's got a father called Robert and he's the correct age according to the 1841 census.It does not mean he's the one we're looking for.

Linda

Linda,

I just read thru the thread with Frances, and I am wondering if she could possibly see if there was a twin done that same day with the parents being Robert and Mary. We know that Peter was a Twin and I found a doc. that has a Robert and Mary's twins being baptized on Feb. 17, 1804. 1804 seems like he would be older than Elizabeth and older than what was claimed in the census'. The twins is what caught my eye even though we know that one twin will die shortly, they would have been baptized together, generally speaking, correct?

mygriffiths, Linda,

Aspull is in Lancashire, England, correct? I know that Peter's son Benjamin was born in Bagillt, Flint, but his sister 4 years later was born at Deansgate, Manchester. I wonder if Peter had a job that had them moving a lot.

I am not sure who started filling out the family Bible, but I have to think that it was possibly Benjamin and then when my grandfather left for the USA, the family gave it to him. After he passed in 1947, the bible was boxed up and my cousin found it in 2005-6. The last entry in the Bible was the death of Ernest Lloyd's sister in 1946.

It is indeed a small world, and if there is anything you need from the State of Utah, just let me know and I will be more than happy to get and send it to you.

Agertsch, I have written to Frances again. We'll see what she comes up with. I am really very careful about believing what seems so obvious as I once made this mistake and was mortified when it turned out to be wrong.
It must be wonderful to have a family bible, but do you know when and where it was printed? Perhaps that could be an indication of who started the entries. In the mid-nineteenth century most people couldn't read or write and certainly had no money for books. Elizabeth Hughes-Lloyd is, or example, listed as a "pauper" in 1851. I'm sure she had lots of other worries. Surviving each day was a challenge. We do know that Benjamin could at least write his name (marriage certificate). I read that some Sunday schools taught children some rudimentary skills. Perhaps he was very ambitious and did learn to read and write.
Quite something! Anyway, it's possible that the family bible was started later and that a Peter Lloyd with a father called Robert (marriage certiicate) was sought in Flintshire leading to this conclusion that Peter was a twin. But we don't know whether Peter was born in Flintshire as the 1841 census only gives the country (here Wales). It lists Peter as a "brickmaker".
Do you have access to the bible. Is there a date when it was printed?

Linda

Spent some time today looking through the 1861 census for Elizabeth Hughes Lloyd Griffiths and children, but no luck.
Saw a burial of a Peter Lloyd In Baglitt, Holywell in December 1869. He was 65, which would place his birth at around 1804. Could this be the twin??? Wrote to Frances, but she has found nothing more that would help. Hope the bible has a printing date in it.

Packing in for tonight!

Linda

Agertsch .I found your tree on ancestry but I do not think Benjamin's daughter Ada died in 1898
Marriage: 7 Nov 1900 Christ Church, Ince, Lancashire, England
William Garner - 26, Grocer, Bachelor, Peter Street
Ada Lloyd - 27, Spinster, 11 Jackson Street
Groom's Father: Thomas Garner, Farmer
Bride's Father: Benjamin Lloyd, (deceased), Grocer
Witness: Eli Lloyd; Minnie Lloyd
Married by Banns by: Rupert Large
Register: Marriages 1899 - 1906, Page 42, Entry 84
Source: Original Register at Wigan Archives


ALSO
Baptism: 28 Jun 1901 St Andrew, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Benjamin William Garner - [Child] of William Garner & Ada
Born: 27 Jun
Abode: 6 Ingram St
Occupation: Grocer's Assistant
Notes: P. Dead
Baptised by: W.A.Wickham Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1871 - 1901, Page 99, Entry 790
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

My grandmother was a toddler living 5 doors away.


Garner Ada 44 yrs Woodhouse Lane, Wigan 16-Mar 1918 wife of Wm. C 1298 C of E
Lloyd
Lloyd Hezekiah 21 yrs Spring View 07-Mar 1888 Carter C 1298 C of E
Lloyd Benjamin 4 mo Spring View 15-Apr 1888 son of Benjamin C 1298 C of E
Lloyd Benjamin 53 yrs Spring View 13-Feb 1895 Miner C 1298 C of E
Lloyd Annie 35 yrs Wigan Infirmary 17-Jan 1921 wife of Ernest C 1298 C of E
Lloyd Amos 55 yrs 154, Upholland Rd. Billinge...of 14-Feb 1934 Tolketh St. C 1298 C of E

Ada Lloyd
1873–1918

BIRTH 21 SEP 1873 • Ince in Makerfield, Lancashire, England
DEATH 13 MARCH 1918 • Woodhouse Lane, Wigan, Lancashire, England
great-aunt

Here is the entry for Ada Lloyd from my tree.... I actually have her death certificate in my possession. I would love to have known more about all these people, but by the time I came along, they were all gone. I put a picture of Ada, on Wigan world, because I was trying to figure out if the numbers on the picture were from a jail, or an asylum of some sort. I believe I put her under the name Lloyd, but she looks like she could be a Russian Prison Matron....lol. I am going to have to call my cousin and have her take a picture of the Bible, so I can see the date on it. I believe that William Garner remarried in 1919 a Jane Finch. I have to think that the numbers at the bottom of the picture would tell an entire story, but no-one seems to know what they would mean.

Benjamin Lloyd owned 2 burial areas, because he has some of his kids and grandchildren (Dawson's) were all buried together, but not the little Garner child, which I have never understood.
I looked in the 1861 Wales and the England 1861 census and have found nothing , but I am not giving up on this family.... Linda and mygriffiths, Enjoy your evening!

Marriage: 30 Aug 1919 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Garner - 45, Grocer, Widower, 256 Woodhouse Lane, Wigan
Jane Bennett - (X), 55, Widow, 31 Scholesfield Lane, Wigan
Groom's Father: Thomas Garner, Farmer
Bride's Father: James Finch, Collier
Witness: Peter Bennett; Emma Lloyd
Married by Licence by: Wm. Rowley
Register: Marriages 1916 - 1921, Page 135, Entry 269
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Linda,

The Lloyd Family Bible is An Authorized KJV, Wm.,Collins, Queens Printer and it was printed in MDCCCLXIV... If I remember correctly that would be about 1864. The Bible was Started with Benjamin and Elizabeth Lloyd.They married in 1862 and the first born was born in 1864.

my griffith,

That would be it! So Bennett is the married name before she married Wm. Garner. Thats great information there.... Thank you so much!

Marriage: 3 Feb 1926 St Andrew, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Garner - 23, Tramway Conductor, Bachelor, 256 Woodhouse Lane
Elizabeth Grimshaw - 21, Spinster, 82 Woodhouse Lane
Groom's Father: William Garner, Warehouseman
Bride's Father: William Grimshaw, Jamboiler
Witness: Ernest Garner; William Grimshaw; Margaret Melady
Married by Banns by: JM Buckmaster Vicar
Register: Marriages 1925 - 1932, Page 7, Entry 14
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Wigan cemetery

Garner
Garner Thomas 45 Yrs Mesnes Rd 20-Feb 1948 D 140 C of E
Garner Elizabeth 86 yrs 40/42 Polesands Rest Home, Morton Rd. EXMOUTH 15-Mar 1991 D 140 Crem C of E

When Ernest Garner was born in 1905 in Wigan, Lancashire, his father, William, was 31 and his mother, Ada, was 32. He had two brothers. He died in April 1963 in Ashton In Makerfield, Lancashire, at the age of 58.
Death of Father
His father William passed away in September 1937 in Wigan, Lancashire, at the age of 63.
William Garner 1874–1937
Sep 1937 • Ince, Wigan, Lancashire, England

I had hoped to find a connection to a Mrs.Garner I knew in Ingram street in the 1950s but no luck.
This is from a tree on ancetry

I see that Jane Garner and William Garner both died in 1937, with Jane Garner being buried with Bennetts. Most likely, her first husband and their daughter but no grave for a William Garner.

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1937
Surname Forename(s) Age or Date of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
GARNER William 63 Orrell Wigan & Leigh ORRL/2A/109
This suggests he died in Billinge hospital.

We've come a long way from the original search!!
I hadn't bothered much about Benjamin, just noticing that he signed his name himself at his marriage. I've now been looking at the censuses and see that he went from being a collier to a master grocer, where he probably had to read labels. There was no schooling at this time and so I find it really remarkable that he achieved this. The date of the bible is 1864 and was started by Benjamin and Elizabeth, you say. I presume it was to record their descendants. Do you know whether Benjamin wrote anything himself about his parents? I noticed in the censuses from the birth places of the children that Benjamin and Elizabeth moved about a bit from Ince to Skemersdale to Yorkshire etc. And what struck me was that their first children had very biblical names and then they swapped to names like Ernest and Minnie. Strange. I wonder whether there was a reason for this.
Can't find out much about brother William. His marriage to Hannah wasn't in a CofE church. I really wanted to know whether he was literate as well, but can't find a scan of the registration of his marriage.
Just browsing around the Ince census for 1861 at the moment to see whether I can find any trace of them.

Linda

Linda,

We did kinda move away from the original search question. I don't believe that he wrote much of anything about his parent. He did record his mother's death, but I believe that it was he who was literate and Elizabeth was not. She signed an "X" for the marriage certificate. I had always been told that he had a coal business, a drapery business and a meat business, but the last census I find with him in it says he was a "fish Hawker" and that leads me to believe that he had a cart. I was told that his business' were at 401 and 402 Warrington Rd. in Ince, and have tried hard to find a picture of that area before 1895. But have had no luck. William and Ann the sister, I have nothing on and there really isn't anything in my grandfather's remains that says anything about either of them.

I know that my grandfather, Ernest Lloyd was active in the CofE church. I have some certificates for him. There is one that wishes him well on his new adventure in the USA. Minnie's name I just found out is Mirium....and I know that she was a spinster all of her life and was living in London until her death. I believe she was a domestic for a wealthy family in London, but can't verify it. Sister Florence, married Albert Heaton, and she took care of her brothers and the children on 2 sisters, and she had one son, Wm. Heaton, who invented the EEG machine with a Dr. Ferranti(?) She then took care of Alberts parents, sisters and 1 brother until her death, which is another puzzle.... she took care of BIL Ernest Heaton until his death in 1961, she died the day after him, and they are buried together. So far, I haven't found a marriage for them but odd that she wasn't buried with her husband since there was a space there for her.

~Arlene

William married Jane Alice Lonsdale in 1873 one of their children was born in Chile!

mygriffiths,

That is where his wife Jane died also in the same hospital, Jane dying in June and he in Sept.

Agertsch,

I don't understand. I have followed William and (presumably) his second wife Jane Alice Lonsdale through the censuses. He died in Lowton in 1909 and Jane Alice in 1918.

Name: William Lloyd
Birth Year: abt 1844
Death Age: 65
Burial Date: 25 May 1909
Burial Parish: Lowton, St Luke, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Lowton



Name: Jane Alice Lloyd
Birth Year: abt 1855
Death Age: 63
Burial Date: 25 Apr 1918
Burial Parish: Lowton, St Luke, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Lowton

At least they are the ones who have a daughter called Ann, who was born in Chile.

Of course, I have seen no scan of the marriage to verify whether William's father was Peter. I could only find the baptism of one of the children on lan-opc:

Baptism: 19 Aug 1874 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Jane Lloyd - [Child] of William Lloyd & Jane Alice
Born: 9 Aug 1874
Abode: Bridgewater Street
Occupation: Fireman
Baptised by: Edwin Lovegrove, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1873 - 1876, Page 28, Entry 217
Source: LDS Film 93748

Fireman has to do with the mines, I think.

Jane Alice seems to have been christened in a CofE church:

Baptism: 29 Jun 1856 All Saints, Hindley, Lancs.
Jane Alice Lonsdale - [Child] of Thomas Houghton Lonsdale & Jane Isabella
Born: 10 Oct 1855
Abode: Hindley
Occupation: Book keeper
Baptised by: P.Jones Incumbent
Register: Baptisms 1840 - 1858, Page 565, Entry 4516
Source: LDS Film 93747

Linda

PS Have since been browsing ancestry. There is a (rather unclear) photograph of Elizabeth Jane Lloyd on the Bentham family tree on there, which you might like to look at. Also Jane Alice Lonsdale's father was interesting. At his death in 1866 he left 1.500 pounds - a fortune in those days - and he died in what they called a "lunatic asylum" in June that year. That's not very politically correct, I know, but that's how they were referred to.

I just wish we knew for sure that this William was Peter's son.I know everything points to him being it,but still.

The original Ann Lloyd was Peter's daughter who was born in 1845 at Deansgate. I have found a couple Ann Lloyd's, who were servants in the 1861 census, but I'm not sure which one she would be. What would be other places by Deansgate, that they might say was her birth place?

So after Wm. Lloyd's first wife and baby died, he remarries but I have yet to find anything showing him traveling to Chile. I will go back and see what I can find now with him and his wife name. Being a fireman, in the mines, what would be the purpose of going to Chile? I know that my grandfather was a miner in Pends. and in Utah and would travel back and forth from the USA to England until he retired. I guess it is possible that some mines in England had sister mines in other countries besides the USA, right?

Agertsch,

I've looked back at the thread. I see you were referring to the Garners when you mentioned both spouses dying in the same year. Sorry!!
I don't know what William would be doing in Chile either. There wsa nothing on Ann on familysearch, but I might have another little browse before finishing. It's almost midnight where I am.
Linda

PS I saw those servants, too, but I just don't know. Ann was back in Wigan with Elizabeth in 1851 and the whole family can't be found so far in 1861. Benjamin married from Rose Bridge in 1862 and I thought I might go through the 1861 census for this area, but not tonight.

Oh, Linda, please go to bed!
I appreciate all that you and mygriffiths have done and are still doing. I just have looked for so long, I knew it would take a great set of eyes and someone like you and mygriffiths! Thanks again, and good night to you~
Arlene

William had become an official in the mines prior to 1881 census when he was an underlooker and later he was a manager.Perhaps this capacity enabled his trip to Chile.

Jane Alice's father according to an ancestry tree died of an infectious skin disease at the 'asylum' whch I presume was Haydock Lodge which was situated near to Haydock Park Race Course.Perhaps he had to be isolated there.

Wow, sounds like an awful way to go. Can you tell me how many Asylums were running there from 1880 to 1920? Would they have gone into one and been able to get out later, or is this where they usually stayed until their deaths? Where they run by the Government or where they more a privatized institution?

There is alot of information about the asylums on the internet.Lancashire initially had three county asylums in the 1850s.Haydock was a private one opened in 1840s and closed in 1970.Apparently is was a cut price pauper's house in 1844 and charged 7/6 week to take in paupers.Another site shows it had a section for patients with bodily disorders.

Are there ways to find out names of patients in an Asylums? I am convinced that Benjamin Lloyd's daughter Ada Lloyd Garner was in one at some time in her life. I have tried to find her in the courts and have had no luck, so all I can think is that number on her picture is from an asylum.

William Lloyd on the other hand, so many questions. Would they have sent he and his wife to these countries while he worked? I'm just trying to figure out how his daughter was born in Chile. Annie would have been the 2nd born, which means that they would have traveled with Elizabeth, the first born. Unless of course they left Elizabeth with family and just he and his pregnant wife travelled there, so that she wasn't alone while she was pregnant.....hmmmmm

Ancestry has a section
UK, Lunacy Patients Admission Registers, 1846-1912 she doesn't seem to be listed there later lists are at the National Archives.
From Wigan ,Rainhill or Winwick mental hospital are closer the records are kept at Merseyside and Cheshire Archives respectively.

As far as Chile was concerned, the development of coal mining had to do with the arrival of steamships. Have read several snippets on the internet about this. Here's one:

"As steamships traveled (sic) overseas from the industrialized countries of Europe their need for coal served as a trigger for coal mining to start at various locations across the globe. An example of this is the coal mining in Zona Centro Sur, Chile, that begun as a response to the arrival of steamships to Talcahuano"

These coal mines were apparently mostly managed by Chileans themselves but they also had foreign workers. Shortly before there had been a boom in the copper and silver mines, mostly in the hands of foreigners, and in the 1860s Welsh smelters helped to establish works in Chile.

There are two longer articles about the development of coal mining in Chile from the Journal of Latin American Studies which you can purchase online if you are interested. A pity I'm no longer working as we had access to all these journals free of charge.

But anyway I would never have thought that workers from Wales were going over to Chile to aid industrial progress. So it was not so unusual. You live and learn.

As I said, I couldn't find the birth of daughter Ann on familysearch. Don't really know where to look.

Linda

Linda,

I would think that perhaps the record of birth would have been in Chile, unless of course, Wm. and Jane had recorded this birth in England, as an out of country birth. I will begin searching for that. I don't know that the Mormon church has many records on file from Chile, but I plan on checking that out. I first want to read about the Chilean mine starts... it may really help me wrap my little head around this. You and mygriffiths, have been so much more than helpful to me. I can not thank you enough.
Thank you, Thank you!
~Arlene

Unfortunately Ann's death certificate in 1900 will not have this information.Interestingly she is also buried in St.David's Haigh where William's first wife and daughter are buried.Maybe the same grave?

Also buried at St David's Haigh is Ann Eastham. Benjamin and William's sister Ann, who was born in Manchester, cannot be found in 1861 like the rest of the family, but there was only one Ann (Anne or Annie) Lloyd who married between 1870 and 1899 in the Wigan area. She married a John Eastham, but not in a CofE service in 1870. They had three daughters (Mary 1870-1875), Alice (b. 1872, who lived to an adult age, and Elizabeth (1874-1876). They lived in Aspull and are easy to follow through the censuses, which also confirm that Ann was born in Manchester. Ann died in 1914 aged 69 and this is her burial:

Burial: 23 Sep 1914 St. David, Haigh, Lancashire, England
Ann Eastham -
Age: 69 yrs.
Abode: 30 Bolney Street, Aspull
Buried by: P. R. Hosbons
Register: Burials 1902 - 1915, Page 193, Entry 1539
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives


John died in 1916 aged 66. Presumably he was also buried at St David's, Haigh, but the records online only go up to 1915.

Linda

Thank you Linda, I saw her yesterday and wondered if it could possibly be the Ann I was looking for. I was planning on looking into it further today. I am thinking of getting a subscription to Find My Past, so that I can look at scanned certs.

Now, the only question is who is this Robert Lloyd, who had a wife that died in 1900, if Peter's son Robert died young. I guess it could be another relative, like a cousin, not an Uncle, like I first thought. You all have been so helpful!

I was out most of today but did try to follow Robert and his wife Mary Ann back through the censuses and birth registers. They had a lot of children and several died young. Practically all were christened at St Peter and Paul, Ormskirk. But in one census (1851) Robert says he was born in "Alkin", Flintshire. This is, I think, "Halkyn". So, if you do get a subscription to findmypast, I would try to find this:

Name Robert Lloyd
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 04 Jan 1829
Event Place Halkyn, Flintshire, Wales

You can also "pay as you go". I've done this a few times in the past. I don't know whether this site is generally better than ancestry, but in some areas the sites have different amounts of information.

Anyway, I'm wondering whether Robert's father William and Peter were brothers, making Benjamin and Robert cousins. No proof yet, of course.

There was an interesting baptism at St Peter and Paul, Ormskirk in 1837 of a Margaret to a WILLIAM LLOYD and MARY, the only baptism to this couple. Robert's father was dead by 1847, but could the above William be him? In the death registers for Lancashire, a Mary Lloyd is noted as dying in Lathom agd 50 in 1854. There was no burial at the church.

Linda

First name(s) Last name Birth year Baptism year Father's first name(s) Mother's first name(s) Place
Peter Lloyd 1804 1804 Robert Mary Flint
Transcription
Image
Peter Lloyd 1806 1806 Edwd Anne Mold
Transcription
Image
Peter Lloyd 1808 1808 Robt Luce Cilcain
Transcription --baptism 17 Februaury 1808
Image
Peter Lloyd 1809 1809 Benjamin Jane Mold
Transcription
Image
Peter Lloyd 1810 1810 Geo Phebe Mold
Transcription
Image
Peter Lloyd 1811 1811 Benjamin Jane Mold
Transcription
Image
Peter Lloyd 1814 1814 Edward Anne Treuddyn
Perhaps the 1808 one is worth checking.

5 result(s)
Order by
First name(s) Last name Birth year Baptism year Father's first name(s) Mother's first name(s) Place
Robert Lloyd 1827 1827 Robert Elizth Mold
Transcription
Image
Robert Lloyd 1828 1828 Robert Arabella Cilcain
Transcription
Image
Robert Lloyd 1828 1828 Edward Elizabeth Whitford
Transcription
Image
Robert Lloyd 1829 1829 William Mary Halkyn
Transcription
Image
Robert Lloyd 1829 1829 John Anne Mold

Interesting, mygriffiths. So, I think we can say that Robert's parents were William and Mary Lloyd, since he was born in 1829 according to the censuses and says himself that he was born in Halkyn, which is a bit more exact than Flint.
There are several children born in Halkyn to a William Lloyd and a Mary Davies between 1817 and 1825:

Charlotte Davies (or Lloyd) 1817
Thomas 1819
Lucy chr. 1822 on the same day (January 12th) as
William chr. 1822 (Twins??)
William 1825

After that there are christenings of children to William and Mary, but no maiden name mentioned.

What struck me was the name Lucy. was the mother of the Peter born to Robert in 1808 called Lucy?

If this William and Mary married around 1817, can we find a William born to a Robert in the 1790s??

I'm still working on this. I had hoped to find the maiden name of the mother of the Margaret born in 1837 in the birth registrations for Lancashire, but no luck. Only one in Formby was registered.

So, something to think about!! Was the name of Robert's mother Mary Davies? Other possibilitis in Flintshire are in 1812 and 1823 to a Mary Hughes (!).



Linda

There's a scan of Margaret Lloyd's baptism on August 8th 1837 at St Peter and Paul's in Ormskirk. She was born after civil registration was introduced and so you can buy the birth certificate. But I just tried a "sounds like" search on lancashire bmd and found this for 1837:

LOYD Margret SHORLIKER Ormskirk Preston OK/1/2

SHORLIKER doesn't sound very Welsh. (I think the Welsh only had the surnames Lloyd, Hughes, Davies, Roberts and Griffiths!!). I couldn't find a marriage to a Lloyd, but a Mary Shorliker was born in Ormskirk in 1818, and I'm thinking that she was Margaret's mother. So we can forget this. On the other hand, she can't be the 50 year old MARY LLOYD who died in Lathom in 1854. Robert and Mary Ann had three children in Ormskirk: William (1848-1864), Richard (1851-), Sarah (1853-?). Their next child and all the following ones (including a Benjamin and a William Benjamin) were born in Lathom. I think there must be a connection, but I haven't found one yet.

Linda

Now having doubts about Mary Lloyd. She was buried at Holy Trinity, Bickerstaffe:


Burial: 15 Feb 1854 Holy Trinity, Bickerstaffe, Lancs.
Mary Lloyd -
Age: 50
Abode: Bickerstaffe
Buried by: T. E. Abraham
Register: Burials 1843 - 1866, Page 9, Entry 70
Source: Original registers at LRO

When I was looking at the Ormskirk baptism records yesterday, I noticed that there was a Robert married to an Ellen having children in Bickerstaffe in the 1840s. This was after "your" Robert married Mary Gregory. So it can't be the same Robert. Of course, I have nothing to connect Mary to either Robert. Lancashire records gave Mary as dying in Lathom and then I found Bickerstaffe on ancestry, but these places both belong to the parish of Ormskirk. I'm confused at the moment. Better go back to Halkyn after a break!

Linda

mygriffiths, Linda,

Funny that you would come up with these lists... My Aunt, who had this stuff first had written down that Peter Lloyd's parents were William Lloyd and Mary Jones Lloyd, They had sons Peter, William, John and Robert Lloyd. Then, they had a gaggle of daughters. She also had William married to an Elizabeth Griffith, with her dying in 1896 and William dying in 1901.... It isn't something I have really been able to work with (didn't make sense to me) so I had just left them alone until now. I think I will start out with a 'pay as I go,' simply because I really want to see the scanned documents. From your list, My Peter would have been born in 1804, but then the death that I have for him in 1847, the age doesn't match up. It is possible that my Aunt was attempting, an educated guess in the 1990's before this was all online, and I am completely chasing the wrong guy(s) ~

Arlene,

We know that the father of the Peter Lloyd who married Elizabeth Hughes in 1839 was ROBERT (Frances confirmed this from the scan of the parish register). My griffiths and I are fairly sure that Peter died in Wigan in 1849 and not in Wales in 1847. So your aunt's WILLIAM is wrong here unless there was another Peter Lloyd and Elizabeth Hughes who married shortly before son Benjamin's birth. But Elizabeth's father was HUGH HUGHES in both marriage entries to Peter Lloyd and to John Griffiths.

We also know for sure that the Robert who married Mary Ann Gregory was born in Halkyn in 1829 and that his father's name was WILLIAM and that William was dead by 1847. Mygriffiths found details of the baptism and discovered that the mother's name was MARY.

A William LLoyd and a MARY DAVIES had several children who were christened in Halkyn. Between 1815 and 1830 familysearch lists 30 (!) Lloyds baptised in Halkyn. Of course, they will not all have been William and Mary's children, but you can't do "pay as you go" for this!! It would prove rather expensive. We do NOT know that Robert's mother was Mary Davies. We only know that it was Mary. It really would be interesting to go through the parish registers.

From the announcement of Mary Ann Gregory Lloyd's death, we know that there must be some kind of link between this family and Benjamin's family. Robert can't be Peter's brother if Peter's father was called Robert as his father was called William, but Robert could possibly be Peter's nephew.

If "your" Peter was born in 1804, that doesn't match in any way the census data and so I am not sure about this. Mygriffiths mentioned a Peter born in 1808 in Cilcain to Robert and Luce (Lucy?). This would fit the census data better as Peter was supposedly 30. With rounding down, he could have been 32. And we are only presuming that he was born in Flintshire. What we know definitely is only that he was in Flintshire at the time of his marriage in 1839.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm lecturing (That's what I used to do at work!), but sometimes I need to write things down like this to clarify them in my own head as the names and generations can be confusing.

Do you want to start a new thread? This is getting very long and we've gone off the original Griffith question.

Linda

Have just discovered that Halkyn is in the Holywell registration district and not far from Flint or Baglitt or Northop. So the area looks good, at least.


L.

Linda,

I need to get this all clear in my head with these Lloyd's but the question about the Griffith's was answered with the census, even thought they are all listed as Lloyd's, we know that John Griffith, wasn't a Lloyd, but Elizabeth being illiterate, wouldn't have known to correct what the census taker had written. He died at age 19 and Mary Catherine didn't live past the age of 9/10. I have got some certs. coming in the mail, and I am going to go and check out some scans from Findmypast. I have appreciated all the information that you and mygriffiths has found for me to go thru and see. If I can find Peters birth place and date. I am hoping to find out about Peter's birth and who his mother is, and then if I still am jumbled, I will have to start a new thread. Thank you again.... I'll let you know what comes out of all this info. ~Arlene

Hello Arlene,

I have been busy with other things the last few days, but I just wanted to wish you all the best for your further search for Peter and the links to the other Robert (not to his son Robert).

Findmypast has a lot of Welsh records, but apparently they are not exhaustive as some churches did not supply their records. Also I read that by the year 1851 75% of the Welsh population belonged to some non-Conformist church. Their records are more difficult to find and some movements didn't even keep any. In the first half of the 19th century they would mostly be baptisms anyway as it was compulsory until 1837 (I think, if not later,) to marry in an Anglican church. I have a feeling that Peter may have been a non-Conformist. Daughter Ann's baptism was in a Primitive Methodist church and I haven't found baptisms of the other children, apart from Mary Catherine, who was born to John Griffiths. Unfortunately, it could be that you may never find him.

I put "Welsh non-Conformist records" in as a google search and looked at the familysearch pages that came up. There is a lot of general interesting information on here. You will in Utah have access to the Family History Centre. You may be able to find out more there.

I'll post again if I stumble upon anything interesting, but I seem to have exhausted my possibilities with no access to relevant records. Please keep me informed if you make any progress. I always get interested in these "cases".

Happy hunting,
Linda

... and Linda almost always gets her man! - or woman! Please believe me, if she is researching someone for you, she's really thorough. Everything she discovered for me seems to have been correct as I've checked it out.

Arlene if you search this sites Photos of Wigan- Album-Places- Springfield
the house behind the trolley bus was the home of Elizabeth Grimshaw who married Ada's son Thomas Garner.

Linda, Mygriffiths,

Just to update you... There were two records of Peter Lloyd's death that we talked about. I ordered both. One came and his birth would have been 1798-1799, with an Enoch Lloyd at his death. Can't possibly be him. The second one that I ordered, they notified me doesn't exist at all. So my journey for Peter Lloyd has come to a stop at the moment. Elizabeth Hughes Lloyd Griffith, death certificate came and she died at the home of William and Benjamin and both of their families... that had to be a cramped little space! According to the certificate, they arrived home from work to find her dead of natural causes. Inquest was held on the 25th of April 1872 and the death certificate was registered on the 29th of April 1872. Her funeral/burial on the 28. John Lloyd, (Griffiths) not really sure why he carried that name, but did die in 1872 also. It seems that between Elizabeth (Mother) dying and then Benjamin's son died a week later and then John Lloyd (Griffiths) dying in 1872... was a rough year for this family. All three died with in a 20 day period, all from different things. At least, thanks to your help, I now know what happened to the Griffith Family.... Thank you so much for all your help and your time... I sincerely appreciate this~ Mygriffiths, Did Elizabeth Grimshaw remarry after Thomas Garner's death? Linda, I will make it to the Family History Center to look up more about all of this, but there is a Turner- Blackledge connection, that I have to get to first. Thanks again!

These entries on Wigan Cemetery suggest Elizabeth did not remarry but probably went with her daughter Jean Ada after she had married.

Garner
Garner Thomas 45 Yrs Mesnes Rd 20-Feb 1948 D 140 C of E
Garner Elizabeth 86 yrs 40/42 Polesands Rest Home, Morton Rd. EXMOUTH 15-Mar 1991 D 140 Crem C of E
Rawson
Rawson Jean Ada 71 yrs EXETER & Dist. Hospice 03-Sep 2001 Maer Ln.Exmouth DEVON D 140 Crem C of E

I am so glad you wrote, Arlene, to let us know how you got on. Only the burial of Peter Lloyd was noted at church. I suspect that Elizabeth never registered him officially. Who knows, perhaps she only spoke Welsh at the time of his death. Please keep us informed of any progress.

Linda

Peter and Mary the son and daughter of Robert Lloyd and Mary his Wife,were baptised on 17th February 1804.
Findmy past free access for a couple of days.

Robert Lloyd married Mary Jones on 19th February 1803