Bryn:Ashton

Where does the one begin, and the other end?

OK I know Bryn is within Ashton. At least historically, was part of Ashton UDC.

Looking at tomplum's comment about Bryn pubs, I wondered if the pub that was on Wigan Road, near to thould grammar school(Was it called the Star?) was considered Bryn or Ashton?

Tiz on the Bryn side of Nicol Road, and I think that Whitledge Green, just across the road, was considered Bryn when I was a kid. However the school, just yards away, I never heard described as being in Bryn.

Similarly, Before the district became built up, in latter half of last Century, did not what were known as Ashton Mill Fields stretch from the Railway, to Low Bank Road? ie From Bryn to Ashton. I guess they were the separator, if not an actual boundary, so where, now that buildings cover this area, does Bryn begin?

tonker will come on soon and explain

He'll probably tell us that Bryn doesn't exist

It does.

he cornt do that, there's a chuffin big sign says, " BRYN STATION "

Was I correct recalling name as 'The Star'?

Getting to the age when I no longer trust my memory.

yes the Star was where Arnold Clark is now, Good pub in its day, at the junction of Wigan Road and Nicol Road and old road,

The Parish Boundary for Bryn/Ashton was Nicol rd on one side and Old rd-Lowbank rd on the other

Bryn was, originally, the name given to the estate of one of the Gerards.
Bryn Park. I think they brought the name from Wales. The estate was in Ashton and the name has been adopted by locals. It's not official.

Bryn was, originally, the name given to the estate of one of the Gerards.
Bryn Park. I think they brought the name from Wales. The estate was in Ashton and the name has been adopted by locals. It's not official.

Tonker

Have yoo got hiccups ...

Tonker being less than precise (as usual ;-)).
Bryn has never been in Ashton, nor vice-versa)
(Puts his crash helmet on)
ASHTON-IN-MAKERFIELD is a township, and still is.
It consists not only of Ashton AND Bryn (Wards) but also Garswood AND Downall Green (North Ashton)!)

I'd agree that traditionally the 'boundary' was (roughly) considered to be along Nicol Lane.
On the other (western side) side of Wigan road Low Bank Road was always considered to be in ASHTON ! (I lived there) and also Wentworth estate too (in my opinion).
Nowadays all has changed (administratively speaking, since Ashton Library is now in BRYN if I recall !!!! (I don't have the latest Ward maps to hand but I was gobsmacked when I saw that !!! Also interesting is that 3-siaters is NOT all in Bryn !!!!the race circuit and nature reserve are one in Bryn one in Ashton.
Don't even get me going about how BRYN HALL is NOT in either !!! (it's in ABRAM these days.

The reality (the old Ashton-in-Makerfield UDC reality) needs passing down to our children and grandchildren !

John59

I don't think that the ward boundaries are the issue here and in terms of the Ordnance Survey of the boundaries, prior to the Local Government Reorganisation in 1974 and I have just been looking at a OS map 1955-61 and that shows that Bryn Hall is in Bryn and originally Bryn was a small settlement at the Bryn Hall location ...

So, was the Star a Bryn pub, or an Ashton Pub?

Had I been a teacher at yon school, would I have gone to Bryn for a drink if I fancied a swift half?

It is perception of the populace, not owt do with local authorities or the Gerards.

What makes you think that they came from Wales, Tonker?

Also, the earlier Bryn Hall was much closer to Landgate than the later BH. Site was once indicated on older OS maps as Old Bryn. (Though OS maps extremely unreliable in this context- they did not employ anyone with historical/archaeological skills: the surveyor merely recording what he gleaned from locals)

Whilst on the subject, Wentworth Estate was open land when I was a kid. It was known as 'Ashton Mill Fields'

Anyone know the origin of that name?

It was very rough underfoot, and obviously had not been in use as agrarian land in the recent past. There appeared to be some colliery remains in the far South West corner.

priscus

LINK

Yes, I have walked past it thousands of times. I know where it is.

The previous Bryn Hall, allegedly, is site marked 'moat', at left edge of map. Some maps have also displayed the legend "Old Brynn", thereabouts.

The problem is you CANNOT rely on OS for historical veracity.

1st Edition OS recorded things to be what people had said them to be, so many antiquities were falsely recorded. Then the falsity was perpetuated, and thanks to OS lots of people think certain old stuff is Roman or Medieval when it has been shown not to be so.

If you don't believe me, look it up!

Yes, I have walked past it thousands of times. I know where it is.

The previous Bryn Hall, allegedly, is site marked 'moat', at left edge of map. Some maps have also displayed the legend "Old Brynn", thereabouts.

The problem is you CANNOT rely on OS for historical veracity.

1st Edition OS recorded things to be what people had said them to be, so many antiquities were falsely recorded. Then the falsity was perpetuated, and thanks to OS lots of people think certain old stuff is Roman or Medieval when it has been shown not to be so.

If you don't believe me, look it up!

Yes, I have walked past it thousands of times. I know where it is.

The previous Bryn Hall, allegedly, is site marked 'moat', at left edge of map. Some maps have also displayed the legend "Old Brynn", thereabouts.

The problem is you CANNOT rely on OS for historical veracity.

1st Edition OS recorded things to be what people had said them to be, so many antiquities were falsely recorded. Then the falsity was perpetuated, and thanks to OS lots of people think certain old stuff is Roman or Medieval when it has been shown not to be so.

If you don't believe me, look it up!

Jeeze priscus, I heard yoo first time

According to the forum know all, the original Bryn Hall was in the field to the right, as you turn into Landgate Lane off Wigan Road, near to Landgate School

I'll try to add a little bit to this thread.

Tonker was correct when he mentioned that the word "bryn" could have been brought from Wales. It is a welsh word, that means "hill." Having said that, it could be more likely that its from old norse. In that language, it means "brow" as in the brow of a hill. There is evidence of vikings in the area in the form of other place names. Billinge for example.

Regarding Ashton mill fields. Some of the older Downall Greeners could answer this better than I can, but, there used to be a mill there near the Green. It was demolished in the early 1900's. Remains of it can still be seen. The fields behind it (on the Bryn side of Low Bank Road) were always known as the "Mill Fields." As a kid, I remember wheat being grown on them. Not by the miller, of course, but by farmers. The field that was in the "triangle" created by Low Bank Road, the railway and the Wentworth Road estate was also used for crops and also known as Mill fields. This stopped though when the M6 was built, as the area was used for dumping excavated material. I've not lived in the area for a good number of years now, so dont have a clue if its been used for growing anything since that time. Perhaps one of the DG-ers on here would know?

Sorry TTS. having comms trouble. (This post is via tethered mobile!)

I think it is much further along than the school. Just beyond where the Pemberton Branch of the Lancashire Union Railway used to be.

uncle joe Yes, I recall crops closer to the Rail/Road Bridge (Spindle Hillock), but where the housing now is built (Wentworth) was devoid of them, and was Rough land in early 1950's. (Was difficult to walk on: very deep ruts. As if earth-moving machinery had been exercising there!)

the 'boundary'on wigan road is marked with a big stone that was across the road from DR Levin surgery .. just before Nicol Road that what we was told at school

Peter the boundary stone is for Ashton/Wigan not Ashton/Bryn

Was the mill, (Downall Green) associated with the dam which used to exist in the vicinity? ie Had it once upon a time been a watermill?

I think Tonker is reet, Bryn doesn't officially exist, same as Highfield, Lamberhead Green etc

I don't think that anyone has the power to declare it non-existent in any way that has official status, though I do recognise that tonker appears to only recognise township and local authority as valid basis for existence.

Places were around and attracted names long before either of the latter came into being.

I expect they will similarly exist when township and local authority become concepts consigned to history.

There are quite a few different theories as to how Bryn became so called. But nobody actually knows, so they are just that, theories: one person's conjecture.

Personally, I favour the notion that it is the name taken from Peter de Brindle when his offspring Joan married into the Gerrards, and brought with her the Brindle estates. There is at least SOME evidence concerning this, but I willingly concede that it is FAR from conclusive!

Also, the question then continues concerning derivation of the name 'Peter de Brindle', and the place name Brindle evokes the same avenues of conjecture as pertain to Brynn!

priscus: Your comment bout the land where the Wentworth Road estate is being rough got me thinking. I remeber being told that there were two abandoned mines about a half mile south of Bryn Station. Could that have been where they were, I wonder? It could explain the state of the ground.

A family called Brindle once owned a farm down Drummers Lane. Related Peter de Brindle perhaps?

This
DeBretts identifies the Gerrard family as deriving its origin from the same ancestor as the Duke of Leinster, the Marquess of Lansdowne, the Lords Windsor, and many others. The descendants of Gerald or Gerard, third son of Walter Fitz-Other, continued the surname of Gerard, and eventually settled at the Brynne in Lancashire. Sometime around 1250 William Gerrard inherited Brynne Hall by marriage to the daughter and sole heiress of Peter de Brynne. The family seat Brynne (Bryn) Hall dates from the fourteenth century.

Thanks google

Uncle Joe

On this map OS 25 inch 1892 -1914 shown in the LINK , two mines are shown South of of Bryn Station, 'Ashton Pits', which was at the side of the railway line and 'Birchenheds Colliery' which was on other side of Low Bank Road at the side of Skitters Grove.

LINK

I think WW has a member who is a 'Brindle', A number of photos have been posted by him.

The name 'Brindle' would have got attached to the Serfs and Villeins of the Brindle estates. A peculiarity of the Feudal System, is that they were deemed to belong to the land (estate). It is known that they were transferred along with the land when it was sold.

So Gerrards, after acquiring the Brindle estates, would have had Brindles as part of their bonded (unfree) populace.

Thanks for posting that map, TTS.

Also off Low Bank Road, Barrow Lane Colliery, with its associated tramway, and air shaft is a new one for me.

The tramway must have morphed into the unmetalled track which we had to pound down to the Skitters on School Cross-Country.

Priscus is totally wrong about me relying on local government / council / ward boundaries. I'm entirely the opposite! I've often said "forget the council exists". In that way, no council, no wards, no silly little names for places, the original towns which have existed since domesday are still there. Ashton in Makerfield is a place. It is surrounded by Winstanley, Pemberton, Ince, Haydock, Parr and Billinge.

Anyroadup, I'm in the Cave Bar at the minute, I've just started on t'boiled hams. But I'm back home tomorrow night, so I'll argue with anybody who wants to take me on with the "Bryn's not Ashton" bollocks !

And them Downall Greeners are Sintelliners, Ashtoners or not!

PS - I forgot Golborne !