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Market Square   Views: 1817
Market square.   Comments: 41
Photo: . Ozymandias .   Item #: 31252  
Market square.

Alert Image scaled down from 1000px to 723px wide Click here, or click the photo to view original
  Staying with the Market Square theme, this one's from Facebook, so it may have appeared on here previously.
Name the cars.

 [<< Back] 41 user comment(s) below:-  [Leave a comment]

Comments by philip gormley, 2nd June 2019  pg001g3340@blueyonder.co.uk 
That's it Ozy - Keep those talented Car spotters on their toes.

Comments by philip gormley, 2nd June 2019  pg001g3340@blueyonder.co.uk 
It could be the Players Please logo on the distant shop window . . . but a tobacconist's shop set beside an athletics field, and within 'striking' distance of a Seat of Learning? - Crikes!

Comments by Garry, 2nd June 2019  
All British apart from the Mercedes on the right.

Comments by Garry, 2nd June 2019  
Oh and an NSU in the centre.

Comments by irene robers, 2nd June 2019  
We have been to Tatton Park Classic Car Show today.....looked just like this but in colour! Our 1959 Hillman Minx, "Dorothy", would be right at home here! xx

Comments by irene roberts, 2nd June 2019  
Peter can identify loads of them.... what a fascinating photo, Ozy! xx

Comments by . Ozymandias ., 2nd June 2019  
Josie sent it to me Irene, she found it on Facebook apparently, I don't do Facebook.
I can see a split screen moggie in the third row, next to what appears to be a Vauxhall 101. Could be wrong about that one though. There's at least three Bedford CA vans there, One HA van, and a shedload of Anglias.
I'm off bed now, I'll have a closer look tomorrow.

Comments by WILLY WACKUM, 2nd June 2019  
I bet they would be worth a few bob now. A lot more than they were worth then.

Comments by Dave Lewis, 3rd June 2019  
Great pic ozzy, is that a ribble single deck bus at top near Wigan corporation decker.

Comments by walt(north yorks), 3rd June 2019  
Looking at this picture reminds me of a funny happening back around the time this photo would have been taken. Bill Mc was asked to collect a car from the market square, a early 60s Hillman Minx. bill located the car and drove it up to New Springs only to be told it was the wrong car. (any keys would fit back then) Anyway, Bill informed the police who told him that as yet no one had reported a stolen vehicle and he should immediately return it. Bill put plenty fuel in the tank by way of apology and often wondered if the rightful owner scratched their head wondering how it had acquired a full tank of fuel when it was parked exactly were they had left it. Bill Mc by the way has lived in Australia for the past 50 years or so but I know reads WW regularly so, Bill do you remember this ???.

Comments by . Ozymandias ., 3rd June 2019  
Looks like it Dave although I'm no expert, Ray's your man for buses.
Where's the NSU Garry?, is that it next to that A35 van?, well spotted mate.
Hang on, I've just clocked GW's motorbike and sidecar, left of centre in front of the two tone Anglia.

Comments by Rev David Long, 3rd June 2019  david@scars.org.uk 
Ah... how I miss the Wigan of yesteryear. I go all goose-pimply with nostalgia for such dreamy scenes of what we've lost.

Comments by philip gormley, 3rd June 2019  
Those four striped-vans remind me of those that once scampered up the ramp of the Telephone Exchange's gates up near Springfield some years ago. I think the Exchange's vans were dull green, with a splash of yellow somewhere along its 'lines'; a cold forbidding colour-scheme, and one which seems to hint at Danger!

Comments by . Ozymandias ., 3rd June 2019  
Those car keys that you mention Walt, they all appeared to be made by Wilmot Breeden. Most of the old wagons had them as well. I recall they were often stamped with the code letters FA or FP, followed by three numbers.
And speaking of leaving the Hillman Minx parked up with a full tank of fuel, if you did that nowadays, it would probably double the value of the vehicle. No offence to Dorothy intended here by the way Irene, I'm thinking more in lines of my Reliant Robin.

Comments by Roy, 3rd June 2019  
Walt, your story reminds me of something that happened to me. On the passing of my father I inherited his 1960 Hillman Minx. One day I went to my brother in laws, on his drive was a brand new Hillman Imp, we were 'admiring' it and he said ''I'll go and get the key'', when he came back I was sat in the drivers seat with the engine running, courtesy of my Minx key, he couldn't believe what I'd done with a key from another car, albeit a very worn key !

Comments by Helen of Troy, 3rd June 2019  
Tut, tut. Do I detect a touch of sarcasam in your comment Rev Long ?!

Comments by Maureen, 3rd June 2019  
Helen of troy..I can't find any hint of sarcasm in 'The Rev's'comment at all.

Comments by Helen of Troy, 3rd June 2019  
We all read things differently Maureen & perhaps I am quite wrong. Only The Rev can answer the question...& it was meant to be a light hearted comment.

Comments by Veronica, 3rd June 2019  
I think the Rev is having a bit of fun and taking the Michael because we go on so much about times gone by.... ;))

Comments by Dave Lewis, 3rd June 2019  
Thanks ozzy, there was not a lot of bus operators in them days, I only knew Wigan corporation, ribble, and Lut but like you say ray will know.

Comments by Pw, 3rd June 2019  
What is the make of the car third row from the front between the Anglia and the baby Austin van?It has a sad face

Comments by Frank Orrell, 3rd June 2019  frankorrell@sky.com 
This picture is from one of my books titled "WIGAN IN TIMES GONE BY".I don't mind my pictures being uploaded because I've posted photos on here myself. This particular book contains images from the late 1800s to 1971.

Comments by . Ozymandias ., 3rd June 2019  
It looks like a series 3 Hillman Minx to me Pw. Garry might know.

Comments by DerekB, 3rd June 2019  
PW, the car you are enquiring about is a Hillman Minx.

Comments by Mr X, 3rd June 2019  
I would guess the date of this photograph of Wigan Market Square car park with over 100 vehicles present to be about 1965 on a wet winter day as there are no leaves on the trees. There is a Morris Minor with split screen windscreen and lower mounted headlamps that is a very early model. Also Ford Anglias, Corsairs, a Zephyr, but can't see any Mk1 Cortinas, BMC Standards, and Triumph Heralds, Austin A30/35/40s,1100s,Vauxhall Viva and Victors, Mini saloon and estates, Austin Morris Oxbridge Farinas, Hillman and Singers including Minxes and an Imp.
The dominant building is the gas showrooms, the single decker Ribble bus is a Leyland Royal Tiger and the Wigan Corporation double decker is a front entrance long PD3 Leyland Titan, bodied by Northern Counties and will be EJP505-510, GJP11-16, or HJP5-11 (it is not Massey bodied or a short PD2.

Comments by Irene Roberts, 4th June 2019  tizziesgirl@gmail.com 
The car in question is of the Rootes Group and is either a Hillman Minx or a Singer Gazelle.

Comments by Veronica, 4th June 2019  
A veritable car museum on the Market Square - I can't remember so many on there! I wonder if there was a fee in those days or is that a daft question? If there was It wouldn't have been extortionist.

Comments by Ray, 4th June 2019  
The single deck bus is a Ribble Leyland Royal Tiger, probably on route 333 0r 343 to Dangerous Corner or
Wrightington Hospital. The car between the Ford Anglia
and Austin A35 Van is a Hillman Minx. Lots of Mini`s,
Anglias etc, I have spotted a Ford Corsair and a Ford
Consul Classic.

Comments by Albert.S., 4th June 2019  
Surprising as to how many must be out shopping, in such inclement weather. On the other hand, the vehicles may belong to workers, especially if it was free parking.

Comments by philip gormley, 4th June 2019  
Aye, MrX, '65' was a very good year for Bispham AFC, too, . . . won the Junior Cup Final we did. And a few of us had travelled to and from the match in transport closely resembling that shown ahead, and fourth, on the row immediate to 'Blakey's' left. The A35 springs to mind. Whichever, our little beauty was decked mid-blue, and with semaphore trafficators.

Comments by Barrie, 4th June 2019  
Studying this photograph,2 things stand out for me-all the cars are saloons and not a "soft top" amongst them and they are all British made.
If this was today's photograph what would be on that car park?BMW's, Audi's, Mercs', Ford , Volvo etc. Possibly a few sporty cars as well. The only thing that has not changed is the weather!

Comments by Pw, 4th June 2019  
Thanks for your answers.

Comments by . Ozymandias ., 4th June 2019  
I think the vehicle to the right of Garry's NSU may possibly be a Vauxhall Victor. The next one to the right, wedged up against the dark coloured van I believe is either a Standard 8 or 10.
I paid a bloke in Yate £25 for a Standard 10 in about 1968. I kept it for a few years before selling it for £25, by which time it had done more mileage than the Space Shuttle.
I've got a photo of it somewhere. I'd put it on ' car I wish I'd kept ', except for the fact that I think my ugly mug is in the shot.

Comments by Reg, 4th June 2019  
Only just noticed.....slap bang in the centre, is that a traffic warden on the prowl?, so maybe not free parking.....?

Comments by DerekB, 4th June 2019  
Just noticed, 5th row back and 2nd and 8th in from the right there appears to be either a Ford Classic (launched 61) or the original Ford Capri coupe (Launched 62). Both had quad headlights and very similar front ends and were new additions to the then Ford range, not replacing any models. Both were also unloved by the buying public and short lived disasters for Ford

Comments by Thomas(Tom)Walsh., 5th June 2019  
I hope viewers won't wind me posting the following article I wrote it on the anniversary of the publication of " The Road to Wigan Pier " - As the 80th anniversary of the publication of that wretched book 'The Road to Wigan Pier' nears, there are moves afoot from various quarters to celebrate the occasion. And, while I can see that these efforts are sincere and well meaning, I take completely the opposite view and hope it passes with as little fanfare as possible. Although, I'm sure the author will be lauded as a working class hero, a title he neither sort nor deserves, not insofar as this piece of writing is concerned. I have no doubt that he was a talented wordsmith as much of his other, and some aspects of this work proves.

George Orwell did incalculable damage to Wigan at the time of printing and the harm carries on to this day, an example, American travel writer Bill Bryson wrote: "Such is Wigan’s perennially poor reputation that I was truly astounded to find it has a handsome and well-maintained town centre". Much of the blame for its "poor reputation" can be laid at the door of this odious book. Many commentators and politicians often refer to this work as a serious example of working class life in the 1930s nothing could be further from the truth, at least as far as homes are concerned. One of the few times he seems to begrudgingly admit that there is possibly another side to life in the North is when he writes in Chapter 2 " The whole of the industrial districts are really one enormous town, of about the same population as Greater London but, fortunately, of much larger area; so that even in the middle of them there is still room for patches of cleanness and decency. That is an encouraging thought. In spite of hard trying, man has not yet succeeded in doing his dirt everywhere." How's that for for being condescending, it almost takes your northern breath away !

To be a true insight, all aspects of life should at the very least be touched upon, not a mention of visiting,what was main source of recreation and social interaction "the pub" of which there over 80 in the Scholes and Wallgate areas, six within a stones throw of his lodgings, not a word about the Churches, equally well attended in those days although often by a different clientele! Not even a nod to Mesnes Park, a jewel in Wigan's crown. These may see trivial points, but they are not, it gives credence to the belief held by many, including myself, that he only saw what wanted to see, namely squalor and dirt. He does however rage against the Roman Catholic Church in part two.I find it particularly unbelievable that a man who writes about his idea of the perfect pub ten years later, the fictitious Moon under Water ,(Witherspoon's got the the name from his ideas,) would he not at the very least visit a local watering hole, The Preston Arms was only yards from his chosen lodgings. I say chosen advisedly.

I was born in Scholes in 1945, nine years after his visit, and whilst obviously I have no knowledge of life at the time of his writing my Mother, my Father and numerous Aunts, Uncles and other relatives lived in the area throughout the 1930s. I questioned them about the book for an essay I wrote whist at school, I think in 1957, the twentieth anniversary of the first print, I can't be sure of that date but it does seem a logical conclusion, I remember a cufuffle at the time. All of them, without exception reacted in the same way, his name being an anathema because of his unfair portrayal of Wigan in general and Scholes and Wallgate in particular. As they pointed out that were undoubtable problems, and some families where hygiene wasn't the first priority but these were a small faction. They readily agreed that poor housing conditions were rife but his description of the way people lived, they felt was deliberately misleading .Orwell's depiction of his sordid lodgings above a tripe shop – with an un emptied chamber pot beneath the breakfast table – makes great copy but tells us little about the living conditions of most Wiganers . It generally believed that he only moved lodgings because his first port of call was too clean, so much for accuracy!

The vast majority of people lived in clean and well kept homes, albeit money wasn't in abundance, many houses still lit by gas light, with outside toilets but this doesn't equate to filth, far from it. Women would take a great pride in their homes often mopping steps on a daily basis and woe betide you if you walked on their mopping. Home baking was practiced almost universally , especially on Sundays . Washing day Monday, there was a joke that there was a rainbow over Scholes on Mondays. Bedrooms Tuesday and so forth. All this a thousand miles from Orwell's portrayal .He painted a picture of filth and despair. I believe he came to the north with an agenda and a suitcase full of prejudices, he says in the book that he had lost most of the latter, alas he was deluding himself , to be fair to him I don't think deliberately, his canvas already partly painted he sought to fill in the spaces to suite his preconceived ideas. He completely ignored the side of life that didn't fit into his fantasy or that of his paymaster Victor Gollancz .According to Orwell's biographer Bernard Crick, publisher Victor Gollancz first tried to persuade Orwell's agent to allow the Left Book Club edition to consist solely of the descriptive first half of the book. When this was refused Gollancz wrote an introduction to the book. "Victor could not bear to reject it, even though his suggestion that the 'repugnant' second half should be omitted from the Club edition was also turned down. On this occasion Victor, albeit nervously, did overrule Communist Party objections in favour of his publishing instinct. His compromise was to publish the book with an introduction full of good criticism, unfair criticism, and half-truths. Almost like the book itself you might think!

Not only Gollancz and the people from Wigan found the book repugnant, a fellow writer Jack Hilton, who Orwell greatly admired, and who incidentally gave him the notion to visit Wigan, he had originally intended to visit Rochdale, Hilton’s recommendation that Orwell concentrate on colliers rather than cotton operatives was also significant, encouraging him at an early stage to see the representative working-class figure as a man engaged in skilled, essential, dangerous and ill-rewarded labour, Hilton described the book as piffle, Jack Hilton was a writer from a working class background and I'm sure saw through the snobbery of the book. Orwell would be the last person to think himself a snob but even a cursory reading of part two shows that he was, and in large measure at that . He claimed to be a socialist a claim that is spurious at best, again in part two he seems to decry so much of the principal and denounces the would be participants,although in the very last chapter he seems to contradict himself and struggles to champion what in earlier chapters he debunked. He did however join the International Brigade in the Spanish civil war to fight against Fascism.

On the positive side ,and there are some positives,Orwell described graphically the harsh and inhuman conditions in which miners worked and this aspect of the book told a story that needed to be told, as did the harshness and unfairness of the means test but this didn't give him carte blanc
to demean proud neighbourhoods in order to give his work " a shock factor " .It is thought in some circles that book lead to better conditions in the mines, I disagree with this analysis .The improved conditions ,came about because of two factors. World War II, and subsequent need for energy gave them a better bargaining position but by far nationalisation of the industry immeasurably altered the lot of the miner, and not a moment to soon.

To say Orwell was selective in his choice of lodgings and houses visited would be generous , a generosity that should not be afforded a writer who claimed his work was a factual record , which in some aspects it was, telling some unpalatable truths , but to use the people he used to suite the aforementioned painting whilst almost completely ignoring the vast majority of well kept homes belittles what could, and perhaps should have been a chronicle of great importance. Highlighting the plight of the miner and the appalling conditions in which he worked. Orwell says in Chapter 7 "That the miners of Lancashire and Yorkshire treated me with kindness and curtsey that was even embarrassing,"he also said " if there was a man I felt inferior to it was the coal miner" and so he should be , they trusted him and in my opinion he betrayed their trust, as surly as if he had slapped them across the face with a piece of "black tripe".

I have thought long and hard before writing this article but on reflection I felt it was not only something I need to do, in fact it was my duty. A duty to my kith and kin and to all the descent people of my beloved, but much maligned Scholes of yesteryear. The following chapters are an insight in to life of working class lad in a northern town. I had a wonderful childhood and wouldn't have wished to be born and raised anywhere else. Wallgate whilst I have only limited knowledge,I'm sure was equally damaged by Orwell's blinkered observations as it was Wigan as a town . Maybe you would need to be born within the sound of St.Patrick's or St.Joseph's bells to fully understand the community spirt and sheer goodness of the residents of Scholes and Wallgate. If there is an afterlife I'm sure George Orwell will feel a need to apologise to the good people of Wigan and the other towns he besmirched in such a cavalier way.

Comments by Maureen, 5th June 2019  
Mr Thomas Walsh,you are so correct..I read his book and was disgusted at his remarks,what he seems to have forgotten is the fact that the North kept this country on it's feet,and as for Wallgate and Scholes,maybe he was just a little jealous of the way the community stood together.I myself spent my whole childhood in Great George St Wallgate,and like yourself I could not have had a better upbringing,it was a great community.The policeman that took us across the main road to go to School kept saying to me "don't forget love to join us when you leave School..I met him years later,and he told me that he had been to many towns but had never met characters like the ones in Wallgate,and loved the people.We were brought up with the saying that "Cleanliness is ne xt to Godliness,I wonder if George Orwell was.

You only have to read the thread on 'Wallgate and Families'to see what a great community we had,and of course the same can be said of Scholes where my own Mam was brought up..her manners were second to none,and if she could have met him she would definitely have something to say to him.Tom..your comments were brilliant.

P.S.if any of my letters are missing,I must say that my ipad has given up the ghost and am using my hubby's tablet,but have noticed that it doesn't catch all my letters ha ha.

Comments by Veronica, 5th June 2019  
There will always be loyalty for Scholes and Wallgate as long as we are still alive Maureen. I suppose Orwell in his misguided way thought he was championing the working class by pointing out the worst areas. He also pointed out the squalor of Spain during the civil war there. I just wonder what he would think of Scholes and Wallgate, and the Spain of today. Mind you squalor in cold damp climate like ours must have seemed worse than the squalor of the hot dry climate of Spain despite the civil war.

Comments by Albert..S., 5th June 2019  
Reg. I don’t know when this photograph was taken. There is a photograph under Assorted ‘Traffic Wardens’ 1967. They seem to be in brand new uniforms.

Comments by Tony L, 5th June 2019  
Reg - possibly a British Legion car park attendant rather than a traffic warden. They wore a similar uniform, but had a black and yellow chequered band on their cap, rather than a plain yellow one, like wardens.
As I remember, these attendants staffed the market square car park, and the one that was between Mesnes St and Dicconson St, where the multi storey is now.

Comments by Garry, 13th June 2019  
Pw. Hillman Minx series V.

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