Wigan Album

How did we come to lose the fine collection of truck manufactures that once we had?

AP
The British stopped buying them because they were conned into thinking foreign were better.

Forward yo ho the wagons are rolling again,another 6 month of these boring pictures

Do you remember that 60s song - Beep-Beep, about a guy in a limousine being chased by one in a bubble car? Well, that's what happened to our motor industry. We remained staid and 'superior' whilst the brash new boys from Germany and Japan built up their capacity and reliability. We used to laugh at Skodas as we passed them in our Allegros....

There were many reasons for the decline in British truck manufacturing.
The key strategic reason arose from an unintended consequence of the formation of British Road Services. BRS became the monopoly buyer of trucks and regularly gave orders to all 15 or so of the then lorry builders.
At this time, and on an ongoing basis,the European truck businesses were consolidating into fewer, larger groups giving them the the benefits of scale.
When BRS was privatised the less efficient UK lorry manufactures, left to fend for themselves, didn’t have the sales and administration set ups to compete effectively in an open market.

In answer to the question, back in 1974 I drove for a company that would only buy one particular British make of truck. Due to a sudden and rather unexpected large expansion programme upto 10 new trucks were needed only to be told by that supplier they could not meet the demand. A European truck manufacturer stepped in with a new truck which I had the good fortune of driving. After some months it was realised that the vehicle was not only faster and smoother but had a better MPG return along with the fact they were readily available and cheaper to buy. This was enough to convince the gaffer that it was time to change - the rest as they say - is history. Do you remember what happened in the 1970s when Japanese built cars started to flood our roads - dito Ozymandias, I wonder if you'll get as many comments about this photo as the two previous, I hope so.

We have never been complete truck makers here in the UK, only assemblers, ie the truck above. A Gardner engine, David Brown gearbox, kirkstall axles, Lucas electrics and so on. A Volvo make and build everything on their trucks, so do Daf and Scania.

I've already made it clear that this photograph isn't one of mine. This image, along with many others can be viewed by visiting the ' Images of Burscough ' website. ( many thanks Philip ). My sole purpose of posting it on this site is to attempt to counter the suggestion that the wagons shown in item # 29902 were photographed whilst stationary, as I'm firmly convinced that this wagon, 351ATE is the trailing wagon in the previous shot. It can be easily discerned that the rope cross on the front reel is substantially higher on the nearside of the reel than it is on the offside, on both pictures. Note also the branches on the tree to the right of both shots. I'm of the opinion that Mr. Birchall took the first shot, then waited several seconds before possible stepping into the roadway to take the second shot. As the wagons would have been travelling at little more than walking pace, a reasonably clear picture could have been obtained without the necessity of having the vehicles come to a standstill at such an innopportune spot. It has to be said that the standard of roping and sheeting on this load also is an excellent example of what is now pretty much a dying, if not already moribund craft. I wonder if these two images are true colour photographs, or have the been tinted, or doctored in some way?, and when did colour photography become available to the masses?, someone will no doubt let me know. Keith Beckett makes a valid, logical and hitherto unconsidered point, by me at any rate, regarding the involvement of B.R.S. in the decline of the British truck industry, as does JJP. I personally believe that a combination of lack of investment and a reluctance to change, for whatever reason were both instrumental in its downfall. Whereas the continental manufacturers appeared to design their products around the driver, the British manufacturers seemed to view the driver as an irritating necessity. Either way, just like the British motorbike industry, it's history now....Now this last comment is aimed specifically at Ed. I personally don't care for photographs that are sport oriented Ed, so this is how I approach the problem.....I ignore them, I just skip over them and move on to something more interesting. Perhaps I could respectfully suggest that you try this approach. I can assure you that it works for me. You've made your point, and we're all aware by now that you find pictures of wagons irritating, but it can't be as irritating for you, as it is for us having to listen to you constantly bleating. Instead of sitting in front of the fire, complaining that your legs are burning, why don't you take the dog for a walk, or go round with the Hoover, or get that perm you've been promising yourself? Or failing that, on one of the Freeview channels, there's a programme called ' The Jeremy Kyle Show '. It features in depth intellectual discussions between a studio audience composed of university graduates, and guests with a wide ranging knowledge of STD's, marital infidelity, and paternal uncertainty. I reckon a chap of your obvious intellect would find it an interesting alternative to the meagre fare that this site has to offer. So why not give it a try, for yours and everyone else's sake?

Ozy.

Arthur - Atkinson, ERF etc may have assembled vehicles from primary manufacturers, but Leyland, AEC, Bedford, Ford, Commer all made everything but ancillaries for their vehicles.

And not forgetting Foden, with their two stroke engine and their twelve speed box.

AP,
British designed and built vehicles still in production at Leyland.

Let us hope, and trust that Brexit is everything that we wish it to be in the future, both in engineering, high quality technology, entrepreneurship, and the thirst for education, education, amongst our young people, for they are the backbone of our future.

I don't suppose any of you ex-lorry drivers have thought of applying to the BBC programme Mastermind with your 'chosen specialist subject' LORRIES, WAGONS and TRUCKS? I'm sure they would provide you with a replica driving seat instead of the dreaded 'black chair'. To set the mood music could be provided courtesy of Willy Nelson singing 'On the Road Again' ( I wish ) instead of the ominous sounding 'Approaching Menace' by composer Neil Richardson. There would be no 'passes' to any questions.
I can see it now - The Caithness Glass Trophy held aloft in the Victor's hands and placed in the cab window only to be smashed to smithereens whilst shunting up Parbold Hill! Just a thought no offence intended at all- carry on reminiscing.

Veronica....Ozy, JJP, Myself and a few others on this thread
would do well on "Mastermind" with "Lorries" as our chosen
specialist subject. For my mood music I would like to hear
"Six days on the road" by Charley Pride. Put it in to your
Google Thingamy, and have a listen. If you have any problems
with some of the Americanisms in the song, please let me know.

Albert , the prosperity and foundation of our country was built by the many industrial towns like Wigan . With the coal mines we were able to transport goods and bring all the other industries into play. Thatcher closed the pits
saying they were uneconomical and they could buy coal at a cheaper price
from other countries. The same is happening with steel, we simply cannot
compete with the Chinese. I heard a a young steel worker on the TV , young lad with his wife and child. He said , I was told that this was a job for
life. I thought what planet is he living on ? What industrial towns like my beloved Wigan forgot/forget is we belong to a-country that is part of the world . Miners only knew how to mine, this was passed to each generation. They lived in this enclosed world believing it would last forever. This was never going to happen. The grave error Thatcher made was not investing in the new technologies up North. The Northern powerhouse . The labour of the miners could have been transferred to the new technologies we see now and need to compete with . But would the miners have been able to adapt to these new technologies? Those incredible men and women contributed massively to what our country is today , sadly they believed this would last forever. There is no such thing as a job for life . We have sell high quality goods to the world , in order to compete . Unfortunately, each Government, including Labour , believe the Uk is London and a few other bits. It was these other bits that built the foundations of this country. Industrial towns like Wigan were left behind by successive Governments, but unless we change our mindset to these new technologies, and put them in the Northern towns , we will always remain in the past and be left behind.
Sorry Ozy, you for one will know how a comment on here can go sideways .

I have listened to old Charley Pride - its a very catchy tune to get you in the mood. I'm sure that can be arranged Ray... In fact a few Trucker songs could be part of the.questions come to think of it!

Julie. All that you state is absolutely true. We now have to consider that, as water now under the bridge, and focus on the future. We are now at a critical juncture. The last paragraph of my comment relating to education, is in my opinion the vastly important one. Science, mathematics, physics, engineering , architecture, plus other subjects that are within this range. Classics have their place in education, but it is the subjects that I have mentioned that are, in my opinion, the foundation of a nations wealth creation.

My Dad worked for the firm 'Saunders'and 'Alf Goulding'..I would skip School and go everywhere with him (sod School) it was great ..over the Yorkshire Moors and feeding the sheep..before the motorways were built, I still recall the feeling of climbing into the cab and looking forward to another experience..down to the Liverpool docks where my Dad would lock me in the cab,don't think it would be allowed today,they don't know what they're missing,the freedom of going to different places..I would watch him rope and sheet and try to copy him,of course he made sure that he finished it all off himself..the good old days were surely good,and my hubby then started driving for Gaskels but I was a big girl then and didn't go with him.ha ha

Veronica...A few translations from the Charley Pride song
"Six days on the road". The Eastern Seaboard is the Atlantic
coastline...10 forward gears & a "Georgia Overdrive" is when
you are going downhill at maximum speed, and you need to go
faster to get a decent run at the hill in front of you...
Slip the gearstick into neutral, and let gravity give you
another 10mph. The UK version is "Aberdeen Booster" or
"Silent Seventh"..."A Jimmy & a White" refers to 2 makers of
American lorries. A Jimmy is a GMC, General Motors Corporation, GMC owns UK makes Vauxhall & Bedford, Opel cars
in Europe, and Holden Cars in Australia. White is an American Truck Maker, more recently involved with Volvo Trucks. The ICC is equal to what was Ministry of Transport
in the UK. Regards, Ray.

I thought that GM had sold the Vauxhall-Opel brands to'Groupe PSA'!

Well Ozy, once again you have pressed the right button, just look at the favourable comments made by not just owd drivers like Ray, DC and me but others who have found these pics interesting, sadly not Ed but -well- you can't please everyone can you ?. The memories I have are to me priceless. Back in 1966 coming over Blackstone edge A58, 1am back from Leeds, everywhere was covered in snow, the moon was out not a cloud in sight or anything else for that matter, what an amazing view Lancashire and Yorkshire to behold and all mine!. Driving the same Thames Trader in Leigh just a few days later - over an hump back canal bridge, coming the other way a policeman on horse back, have you ever seen a scared police horse rear up and unsaddle its rider -no !- I have and got the biggest telling off you could imagine it was like watching The Lone Ranger, hi ho Silver. Delivering Robinson Willie's gas fires to North Thames Gas Board in the big city only to find I had taken the wrong turning and was now in St Pauls Cathedral's rear yard with a very irate gentleman with a dog collar ( sorry Rev David) teaching me some very unusual words, I think he meant - get that Bl***y thing out of here now!, oops. do you know what Ozy, I would do it all over again if I only could.

My word Ray - its not just a song is it...he is very good and those songs are quite meaningful. Mind you they would have to be if listening to them in a cab for hours. When I have a minute I 'll go on Ytube again and see what else there is!

AP... You are correct, I am not up to speed with who owns who nowadays. Regards, Ray.

In 1967 Richard Marsh, the Labour Minister of Power, set out the government’s fuel policy. It detailed the forward fuel mix for power generation. Oil at 5 dollars per barrel with secure supplies from the then 3 largest oil producing states of Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma would be given priority along with gas. The first licences for drilling in the North Sea were granted in 1964 although the NCB were the first to drill for gas on an exploratory basis years earlier.Nuclear power generation was to be significantly expanded.
Will Woods a union executive member described the policy as a complete betrayal of trust in the miners.
History suggests that no one from government downwards wanted to accept that the deep mined coal industry had been placed on a downward slope to extinction and as a consequence no forward action was taken to attract new industries to the coalfield areas.
During his ten year spell as Chairman from 1961 Alf Robens oversaw the closure of around 400 pits and the loss of jobs of over 300,000 miners.

Does anyone else remember having to hold ether-soaked swabs of fabric over the air-intake to get 'recalcitrant' diesel engines to start in those oh-so-cold winters of mid last Century?

Stuff just happens when you're out on the road though doesn't it JJP, whether you like it or not. Your tale about fricknin' the bobby's horse reminded me of an incident that occurred many years ago, as I was coming up the A6 from Derby. It was a particularly blustery day, and just as I was entering Belper, where the road narrows coming into the centre of town, a policeman was walking down the pavement towards me on my nearside. Just as I got level with him, a gust of wind lifted the helmet clear off his head, into the road and directly into my path. It wasn't done deliberately and it was all over in a second. There was no way I could avoid the damn thing. I just heard a loud ' pop ' as it went under the wheels. Now I'm not familiar with the procedure surrounding the squashing of bobbies helmets, or the penalties resulting from such felonious acts, Perhaps Albert could enlighten us. Should I have reported it?, but that hardly seemed necessary, as the poor chap had witnessed the event personally, so I just carried on and pretended that I hadn't noticed. I'd have liked to have been a fly on the wall when he arrived back at the station though. Since this incident occurred around 1970, I feel confident that the Derbyshire police force will have closed the file on the matter by now.

Regards. Ozy.

No need to apologise for sending the debate off at a tangent Julie, I do it all the time, and as far as I'm concerned, you must regard the photograph and heading as just your ' starter for ten ' as Paxman would say. Regarding the issue of mining however, although I was born and brought up in a mining village, where probably 80% of the male inhabitants worked in the many surrounding pits, I chose not to go down that route. It must be remembered though, that not all the people that worked in the mines, were necessarily colliers. Many would have had their own trade, such as the joiners, electricians, blacksmiths, clerical staff even, and possibly a few more that I'm not even aware of. I would imagine that when the pits closed, many of these skilled tradesmen would have quite easily have been able to find alternative employment elsewhere. But if your looking to pinpoint when this country actually came off the rails, you could do much worse than investigate the reasons why trades apprenticeships became a thing of the past, when lads would leave school at 15 and spend 5 years or so training to be a skilled craftsman. It seems to me nowadays, that anyone who's been on the dole for the requisite amount of time can enrol on a fortnight's training course at that place in Hindley Green, then set themselves up as skilled tradesmen......Bunkum ! ...and this is the reason why you can't find anyone capable of doing a proper job these days. And as for school leavers, it seems to me they all stay at school until they're 18, then go to college or university for two or three years to get a degree in zoology before going to work at Mc Donald's. Ask anyone what they do for a living nowadays, and the reply that you'll probably get is, " I work in I.T. ". That's not much use to me when my boiler packs in is it? I don't want someone coming round that works in bloody ' I T ' do I ? I want someone a bit more practical and capable. If I come across as being a little pessimistic regarding the future of this country, then it's probably because I am. Whichever way things go with this Brexit business, if it ever happens, I'm convinced this country is on its last gasp. Not that it bothers me that much. What was it that French king once said ? Après moi le déluge ?.

Regards. Ozy.

Albert: Speaking as one who had been an Engineer, I would urge you not to be too dismissive of non-technical education.

Had Hitler been more familiar with The 1812 Overture, he probably would not have sent so many soldiers to be killed by the Russian Winter!

A LITTLE learning, indeed is a dangerous thing.

Education is expensive: Ignorance, even more so!

It is that which we do not know, but don't know that we do not know, that lurks to undermine us.

In the same vein, Margaret Thatcher was a trained Food-Scientist before she entered politics, nevertheless, she went on to pursue the policy which contaminated the food chain with 'prions' introducing in the UK the new fatal disease which we have come to call 'Variant CJD'!

Ozy Foden also fitted Gardner, Rolls Royce Leyland and Cummins engines to their vehicles. So not complete truck makers. Rev Long is also wrong ie Bedford to name one, had other manufactures components ie brakes and electrics. Lucas, CAV, Lockheed, Westinghouse, Girling and Smiths.....and so on.

I suspect Albert is correct.

Hope and trust Albert ? A wing and a prayer? It may have escaped your notice Albert but we don't manufacture anything in this country anymore. Manufacturing is only 20 per cent of our economy now. What can we make here Albert that the Chinese and the Indian's can' t make cheaper? All the companies that make things in this country are now foreign owned which means that all the benefits from the Research and Development that they do belongs to their country of origin.
We will be left with no alternative but to turn our country in to a tax haven and make our living laundering dodgy money for Russian Billionaires.

I do most sincerely agree as to what Ozy relates to, that it was a great mistake not to advance the time honoured tradition of apprenticeships. Skilled tradesmen are vital in the national economy. My humble opinion was directed at the international economy, that our nation will have to contend with, making absolutely sure that when any manufactured article has on it "Made in Britain" that that stamp means quality, reliability, and good value, for the purchase of it. As I have commented. A solid prosperous future is in our hands. In the past, this great country of ours has always come up trumps, and I am sure we will continue to do so in the future, whether in, or out of the E.U.

If UK do not get the marketing right, then the finest engineering in the world will not suffice. Think Concorde!

Ozzy mentions above, truck manufacturers not being responsive to needs of the driver. Reminds me of an incident in 1970's. At a management seminar in West Midlands, I recall senior BLMC management citing their mantra that the British driver did not want hatchbacks! Renault and VW dealers must have been laughing all the way to the bank.

Brexit or no Brexit we have got to face the fact that manufacturing in this country is in its death throws. The death sentence was passed in the 80s when Margaret Thatcher threw in her lot with the Bankers and abandoned manufacturers to their slow decline. The question that no one is answering is what do we do to make an honest living post manufacturing.

Speaking of Brexit, I read somewhere recently that Mother Theresa is considering offering Brussels £40 billion as settlement for exiting the EU. I also read that Brussels is demanding more like £60 billion. Now that may sound like a lot of money, and it is. But in the meantime, how much is it costing to keep the likes of Tony and Cherie, Neil and Glenys, and the rest of those useless tosspots, in Veuve Clicquot and lobster Thermidor?.....£60 billion would probably be a bargain by comparison. Meanwhile, the rest of us have to tighten our belts. Every other ad on telly is for some charity or other rattling the can, the councils seem to have entered into a strict regime of doing as little as possible, the NHS is in meltdown, there's IEDs going off all over the place, yet the last time I saw a bobby was when I saw a dozen of them chasing Charlie Chaplin round and round a Black Maria. Our pothole riddled roads have almost reached permanent gridlock status. Now tell me this country isn't going down the pan. And to top it all off, those damned Arriva buses, owned by the Germans incidentally, are on strike once again.

Back in the 1970s ERF said that 'sleeper cab's' in the UK were not necessary that it was just an American idea, bye-bye ERF. When I was a small boy my dad who had just gone all through the war told me, Germany had been planning its move for many years - had all the equipment and soldiers ready and able, we on the other hand had nothing - simply not ready -our politicians believed it would never happen. this country has still not learned any lessons from history, I can't wait to see the end product of Brexit- god help us all...

Albert. - I admire your optimism, but even hi-tech 'British' products (such as Dyson's stuff) are made abroad. How many consumer products have you bought this year with 'Made in Britain' on them? Would you buy British (even your vegetables) if a cheaper, foreign alternative is alongside? Liam Fox says we'll gain from Brexit from being able to import stuff cheaper....
The Government's latest 'Industrial Strategy' seems to concentrate its money and effort towards reclaiming the hi-tech initiative, which is fine - but one of those industries is driverless cars... and, presumably, lorries - just to get back, slightly, to the subject.

It seems to me that this country held its own long before we entered Europe and it will have to do so again. The billions pumped into Europe will have to be utilised for better education for a start. Where did those billions come from? We may not have the industry we once had but the brain power must still be there- that doesn't die out. Start manufacturing again - after all if it can be done in other countries it can be done here.
IT is not the be all and end all but it can be useful. Not everyone is academic either there is a great need for practical training has as already been pointed out. Get young people onto 'proper' training schemes instead of making poor wages up with Universal Credit. "Needs must when the devil drives" there will be no turning back Britian will just have to get it 's finger out in more way than one!

So much doom, and gloom portrayed, in some of the comments made. We will soon be on our own, in a very large pool of commercial, and industrial competitors. We have got to look forward to a prosperous future, and be positive. We were on our own once before, and then everything looked absolutely desperate, but we came through it. We must have that same bull dog spirit again. I have never heard anyone say that it is going to be easy.

Wrong jjp. EFR, Foden and Atkinson had fibre glass cabs and could not travel abroad, sleeper cabs or day cabs not allowed.

I'm not entirely certain what these hi - tech industries are that are being mooted here. Are we talking about wind turbines or solar panels or fracking or what? I realise I'm a dinosaur, but I'm personally not enthused by unnecessary modern technology. For instance, who actually needs to set the controls on their central heating system by using their smartphone? For me, a step backwards could quite well prove to be a leap forward. In fact, if they started re - making Morris Minors or Ford Anglias tomorrow, I'd pitch my tent outside the showrooms in order to be the first in line to purchase one. They didn't go wrong very often, but if and when they did, then at least they were easy to fix, unlike these modern hi - tech cars, with their computer this, catalytic that, and Adblue ' t'other And it's the same with anything that's fitted with any kind of computer panel, i.e. pretty much everything these days, once it starts acting up, then it's " all aboard for Calderbank's yard "......In order not to stray too far from the original topic though, one or two may remember the old flat glass rear view mirrors that the old wagons were equipped with. If you broke one of those, which did happen occasionally , then you'd go into the stores, take another glass out of a pack of probably two dozen, pop the retaining rubber off, insert the new glass, job done. Time spent 10 minutes, cost, half a crown maximum. Now compare those to the all singing, all dancing, electrically heated, remotely adjustable, wardrobe sized mirrors on a modern wagon. Break one of those and your talking about the wagon being off the road for half a day at least, and the distinct possibility of having to remortgage your home in order to pay for it. Ive noticed the word " progress " cropping up from time to time, but if this, or having your computer hacked and the the contents of your bank account siphoned off can be construed as being examples of progress, then whoever wishes to progress down this route is perfectly free to do so as far as I'm concerned, just don't expect me to accompany you.

Veronica, the reason we held our own before Europe was because we had an Empire. When the Empire went in the 50s and 60s our captive markets around the world went with it. No one forced us to join Europe, indeed we were in such a mess that Ted Heath practically went down on his knees to Charles de Gaulle to get in.
We are so far behind countries like China and India that it would take hundreds of billions of pounds of investment just to catch up and even if you could find that kind of money you would then have to persuade the British workers to work for the same kind of money that the Chinese work for in order to be competitive. Otherwise they will, as they are doing now, undercut you in every market.
Manufacturing will not bring about our salvation and nor will Brexit.
Albert, you call it doom and gloom, I call realism, something that seems to be sadly lacking at the moment.

They are called CONVEX mirrors on today's trucks and buses.
Simple, don't hit them. They are much easy to change today than the old FLAT glass your'e talking about!!

Complacency and wishful thinking/magical thinking are no substitute for strategy. The latter seems to be glaringly lacking in relation to steering Uk towards any form of competitive advantage. If you reap what you sow, don't complain.

Arthur, I'm not wrong, the then chief of ERF clearly stated that sleeper cabs were not necessary as it was only drivers who wanted them, like their American cousins. He never give a thought to whether the truck was going abroad or not, he just did not want to advance the company - believing that all his customers would stay loyal. Only a few years down the line and ERF were taken over, metal cabs were already in use and only after a lot of pressure did he change his mind and agree that sleepers were the way forward. Regarding the earlier design of cab, i'm not sure if they were permitted to go abroad or not but-- surely ERF must have realized that they were missing out on sales of their vehicles and just how slow they had been modernizing, but like dinosaur's they would not budge.

Those who are pessimistic in relation to the U.K. future as competitive trading nation after Brexit. Can you give us what you envisage to be the U.K. destiny. Is there an alternative strategy?.

Charles De Gaul didn't want us because he thought we would try to take over I should think Dtease.. (It didn't take him long to come over here when Fance fell in 1940! ). But thats beside the point. Now they dont want us to leave - what does that tell us? Would that have anything to do with the billions poured into Europe to build their roads for instance? We couldn't have hung on to Empire either after two World Wars . Now Democracy has ruled we exit the European Market mainly because we don't want to be 'ruled' by Europe! With respect as I am no expert in these matters.

I'm intrigued as to the source of your information Arthur, as all three companies that you've quoted, all manufactured vehicles with steel cabs. I just happen to have before me a brochure from Atkinson Vehicles dated 1962 that gives an all steel cab as an available option, and I personally drove an S40 Foden with a steel cab in the 70's. Derrick Cunliffe drove a Foden S50 with an all steel cab. Jay's of Atherton, ( if anyone remembers them ) bought a couple of versions of the S40 fitted with a double skinned roof for use in the KSA. Your comment regarding day cabs or sleeper cabs not being allowed in Europe I just find confusing to be frank. If a wagon isn't fitted with a sleeper cab, then it's fitted with a day cab. If it isn't fitted with one of those, then it has no cab at all, unless it's a half cab, and you wouldn't want to venture beyond Crewe in one of those things. Have you ever been abroad Arthur?, I don't just mean New Brighton, I mean really abroad? If you have, then you must have seen British motors, with both day cabs and sleeper cabs plying their trade in the days before they were priced out of the job by operators from the former eastern bloc countries. I've know blokes who have driven British built wagons with day cabs overland to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states in the 70's without the benefit of A/C or any other creature comfort. So rather than claiming that JJP is wrong, you may do well to check on the reliability of your sources of information.

Regards. Ozy.

Ozy, If you'd really like a Moggie, they do turn up restored quite frequently, sometimes to a very high quality.

Once upon a time, I did restore Moggies, including rebuilding Traveller Woodwork. I would never consider another Anglia though: subject to fatal corrosion where the load from front suspension struts is transferred to the body-shell. (A bad design flaw, in my opinion.)

Albert, that's the question we should all be asking and aren't and the question our Politicians should be answering and aren't.

I'LL TRY AND SIMPLIFY IT FOR YOU OZY.
HGV's with Glass Fibre cabs, were NOT allowed abroad. Day cabs or Sleeper cabs.
The reason being hot weather, glass fibre and heat don't mix.

Having spent a working lifetime in manufacturing I saw the complete transformation of how products were made following two inventions.
The stepping motor, and years later electronic controls,paved the way for mechanisation and automation.This created a demand on one hand for highly skilled people but also decimated the need for inspectors and shop floor labourers.
Comparing manufacturing of yesterday with today is like comparing apples with lemons.
The article below clears up many misconceptions of the role of manufacturing in the economy of the UK.

https://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/

Arthur, the point I was making -- this country and many of the makers of equipment such as lorries were too slow moving along with the times, hence continentals left us standing. I can assure you ERF were against sleepers saying it was only drivers who wanted them, they (ERF) lost out to the continentals. Regarding going abroad with fibreglass cabs, not all companies went to Saudi but just into Europe - France - Belgium - NL these are no hotter then here. Incidentally, Fibre cabs did get exported to countries like NZ, Aus and South Africa however I do agree that they could not have been comfortable for the drivers, I can't remember though at anytime seeing a report that there was a ban on them. Let's face it, the likes of Volvo, Scania and Daf were light years ahead of our stick in the mud truck builders.

Spot on JJP.

JJP,
DAF would not be in existence if not for Leyland Vehicles.

Albert, you speak of doom and gloom mate. I'm not a pessimist by nature, but leaving manufacturing aside for a moment, here's my possibly overly simplistic view of the state that this country is currently in. It's an exceedingly complex topic, and I'm not a particularly clever bloke, so you'll just have to bear with me. If you look at the six major energy suppliers in the U.K., you'll find that four of those are entirely foreign owned. The majority ot Britain's major ports are also in the hands of foreign countries, such as Dubai and Canada etc. The same thing applies to many of our airports, they're owned by a Spanish company evidently, and It surely can't have escaped your notice that most of the surface transportation companies in this country are foreign owned as well. So given this, then how can we possibly ever be fully in control of our own destiny ? By comparison, Brexit is a mere bagatelle. If we ignore for a moment the hardships caused by the closure of the pits, the shipyards and the steelworks, the Iron Lady certainly made a half decent job of selling off the family silver as well didn't she ? In fact, I'm inclined to believe that the 12 year long Thatcher reign of terror inflicted far more long lasting damage on this country than Hermann Göring's Luftwaffe ever did. That's my view anyway, many people will disagree no doubt, but there it is, and that's me done on the subject. There's nothing that I can do to to reverse the situation other than turning out to vote, and if voting made the least difference to anything, then that would be deemed to be illegal as well, and besides, I've got better things to do with what time I have left.

Regards. Ozy.

Bewley, you are right about DAF and Leyland, they always had a very close relationship. I read somewhere that Dafs specialized in trailer making until the war when they switched to motor vehicle manufacturing but-- did not have an engine so, they approached Leyland for the design of their diesel engine which they then fitted. Of course, many years later they had improved on the engine design but their origins could be traced back to the leyland diesel. I have had the good fortune of driving most DAF models from the 2200 in 1974 through to their most latest designs - the largest I drove was a 56 tonne gross fantastic vehicles to drive. And finally, to the man himself Ozimandias, thanks again for triggering off so much interest, do it again soon owd lad.

Daf trucks only merged with Leyland trucks in 1987.
Daf's were founded in 1928. Today however, Daf have parted company with Leyland.

Ozy

Most of the Thatcher reforms were driven by the onerous terms of the 1976 IMF bailout of the UK economy. It was far worse than anything that Brexit may throw up, a much bigger version of the IMF EU bail out of Greece.
The US government believed that the crisis would turn the UK into a left wing siege economy.
It's very well documented in the book 'Goodbye Great Britain'.

Arthur,


Arthur,
Sorry Arthur but Leyland and DAF are still together under one roof at Leyland under Pacaar ownership, it`s a sad state when most people don`t know we still have a commercial vehicle industry,

Thanks for that Keith, I'll make a point of looking out for the book. Thanks also for posting the manufacturing statistics link on a line of its own, as that makes it far easier to copy and paste on an iPad.

Regards. Ozy.

Leyland-Daf went in receivership in 1993. Leyland Daf Vans (LDV) based in Birmingham also went in receivership in 2000.

Arthur,
Go to Leyland, Croston Road.

I wish I could Bewley, I'm disabled now at almost 75.

Sorry to hear that Arthur, best of luck mate.

Regards Ozy.

An extremely lively, and contentious debate resulting from the photograph of a fully laden lorry. Enjoyed it.

Arthur,
So am I since birth, before benefits.

Bewley, I suspect you have worked it out as well, no fool like an old fool so they say EH!" Enjoyed all these comments though have you ?.

Albert, you spoke not of doom and gloom , but one with common sense
and clarity. I call it reality , which many clearly on WW have dug their heels and are unwilling to accept. Your comments I valued, your insight to look ahead more so..

Thank you Julie for your kind comments. Those friends with other views have good grounding for their pessimism. We can only hope, and pray that the future, after our exit from the E.U. will be very advantageous to us. Our destiny is then in our own hands.

Which I and others agree with....

Albert
Your phrase ' friends with other views' should be adopted as a slogan for peace loving folk across the globe.

Albert, I think your last comment is one that we all should agree with.