Wigan Album

What a shame to demolish it..any other town it would have been treasured.

Nothing changes Maureen.

I think the comment is somewhat unfair. If we were to preserve every Roman ruin/road there would be little room for modern society and everything it requires.Remenants of historical or architectural value or significance are always preserved where practical but what is essentially an old and unstable pile of stones holds little if any value after being detailed and recorded, despite the connection with the past.

Mike W..I think we will agree to disagree on that point..modern architecture does nothing whatsoever for me.

The picture reminds me of Rome, with all the ruins integrated with modern architecture. The only thing is there's graffiti as well, you would think they would have a bit more respect for the antiquities!

The more you look at the photo the more convinced you are that it's the Headmaster's house. There must have been a lot of money available for a structure like that to be built in the 17th Century...

MikeW, Take a walk round Rome Sitges, Chester, York and numerous other towns and cities, Wigans` just different, why?

Because the ruins in those places are significant, unique and have an historical value. If Wigan had relics of a similar standard to the ones you mention I don’t doubt they too would be preserved in a similar fashion but the fact is we don’t.
Are you suggesting EVERY relic from the past however insignificant should be preserved? Would this be practical in today’s society?

MikeW. You make logical comments. I think that the readers would broadly agree. However just because a town has fewer and in your words less significant remains is not a reason for not preserving them.They give residents a feeling of "sense of place". Had anything been preserved it would have perhaps prevented the area around the Wiend-Millgate from becoming the area it is today.I presume that you come from Wigan and know the area. Are you telling readers that you would not like these and the more recent discoveries further down Millgate to be still visible ?

It’s a trade off. It’s the value and significance of the ruins against the value of the land they are on together with societies need for that land.
Some things are worth saving, some are not. My point is it is simply not practical to preserve everything. For example, if we had chosen to preserve every inch of the UKs Roman road network the current road network would be nowhere near as extensive or as efficient as it is now. As a result society would suffer. Let’s also not forget their is significant legislation surrounding the preservation of historical ruins. These are controlled by the government not by local council. So to suggest Wigan is the only town where destruction of ruins would take place is something of a misnomer. Consider also it is likely that the very fields our houses, schools, hospitals and all other buildings modern society needs were possibly cultivated and habituated by Romans, are we saying because of this they should be left untouched? Of course not. So again, my question, where do we draw the line?

I agree MikeW that this arch did warrant preserving (although other frontages have e.g. Ship Hotel, Turnkey in King Street). However the huge Roman bathhouse complex found in 2005 with its 3 hypocaust rooms, stoke holes and plunge pool was significant, unique and had historical value (one of the biggest in the north of England). With a bit of effort some of it could have been incorporated into the Grand Arcade development (as you see in towns like York and Chester) but the developers were overstretched and eventually went bankrupt (only now money is being found for the final report to be published).

I wonder if the arch and lower wall is Roman and the Headmaster's house was built to incorporate the beautiful stone. Would that have been possible? I don't suppose we will ever know, unless the Architect's plans/ record for the house are found, or if even still in existence. It would be gratifying to know for certain. It is a shame the arch was demolished along with the wall. I think the best of the Wigan/Roman? heritage was lost when it was demolished.

MikeW, I would like to add a comment. It does not look like a huge great archway & as Wigan was quite a significent Roman town could it not have been saved in some way. I seems to me it would have made a better feature in a town than some of the modern c**p you see.( excuse my French W Worlders !)

MikeW. I again reiterate my point that I think readers would broadly agree with you. A written forum where limited words are used can make views appear polarised. It would be impractical to preserve evrything from the past.
However with reference to the finds in 2005. As long as I can remember people have suggested /wondered about a possible Roman connection in Wigan. The name of Coccium ( Spelling correct?) was often quoted. Significant evidence is found......and look what happened.
I have seen a Roman road marked on an OS map running through Pemberton. Has anyone else noted this ?

Wouldn't it be grand if an obtrusive Roman doorway were to be unearthed in the town centre and then relocated to a fitting part of town, where and when the ghostly portal would continue to capture the public's imagination as to where, and for what purpose, the portal had led.
I guess that 'a baker's shop with a helping hand' would be most peoples choice as we could then, also, muse on being spared discouraging lines, such as, ' If it isn't on the shelf, we haven't got it'.

Give me kind that I once knew,
Of further options from the few -
And options which maintain the flame
For vital goods behind the 'pane.

After all, the Americans took London Bridge across a raging sea, so why not let Wigan's next hidden gem be taken across the town's much safer undulating sprawl, and by extention allowing Fairy Foxgloves to cast their spell.
In the meantime, I'll muse on Byrney going pell-mell towards an imaginative pie of a different kind.

PhilipC must admit I haven't seen a Roman road marked on an OS map running through Pemberton so would be interested to know which OS map (Roman roads are generally shown on the 6 inch OS map of 1849 - later edition - although some are shown on the slightly earlier 1 inch version).

Hello Bill I will endeavour to find the map. I am sure that you will be aware of this map source but in case you are not have a look at the National Library of Scotland-maps. They have detailed historical maps including Wigan. Good luck wading through it

Beware that OS maps are not authoritative information concerning Roman Roads. If local people said it was a Roman Road, it was recorded as just that on 1st edition OS, labels which have spread to subsequent maps both OS and other. For an ordinance survey, it is necessary to record what it would have been described as by locals, so no archaeologist was employed in the first edition survey.

It seems there was a Roman road from Wigan Roman Fort that ran up to Copull & on to Leyland & Walton le dale.

Priscus you might be right that no archaeologist was employed but the survey did get there information from eminent antiquarians such as the Rev. E Sibson and W. Thompson Watkin. Also the routes shown on the OS maps have been proven time and time again by modern excavations e.g the line shown lead north out of Wigan on the 1 inch OS (1840) was uncovered in 2005 and 2018 at Brimelow Farm by the Wigan Archaeology Society. Also the line shown at Landgate Bryn (which has been continually shown on OS maps going back as early as the 6 inch maps of 1849) was uncovered by the Salford Archaeology Unit in 2018.

And lots of sites, (including roads) shown on OS maps as Roman, have subsequently been proved not to be Roman.

It is a well known issue. Don't take my word for it.

Look it up for yourself!

Priscus I agree but in our area most have proven to be correct (as well as the ones I mentioned before, the road form Manchester to Wigan was excavated by Wigan Arch Soc in 2003 at Amberswood Common and Manchester Archaeology Unit in 1995 at Hindley). The only exception I can think of is the A6 and Blackrod where a Roman Station is marked on the 24 inch OS map of 1893 (no evidence of Roman activity has every been found there).